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62. Why Haven't We Been Hearing Stories From POC?

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“There are narratives and stories of black and brown voices that need to be heard, need to be more visible, and need to be able to make these stories told by us versus how they are translated through the history books and after we are gone.” – Erica Courdae

In episode 62 of the Pause on the Play podcast, Erica and India welcome Cher Hale, Taiwanese Black American and owner of Gingko Public Relations, to discuss the necessity of centering black and brown voices – in business and elsewhere – to allow for diverse perspectives, fair pay, and allowing them to write their own histories and determine their legacies.

They dive into topics such as:

  • the vulnerability of being a speaker or creative and asking for fair compensation.

  • what makes a thought leader or influencer and who determines who gets that label.

  • the cautious optimism needed to create and sustain meaningful change.

  • microaggressions, tokenism, and incorrect assumptions about similarities in experiences.

Cher Hale is the owner of the public relations firm Gingko PR. She focuses on getting diverse women in front of the right audiences so they are seen and heard as the fascinating, talented, multi-dimensional people they are.

Are you ready to listen in? What’s Happening In This Episode

  • [0:02:38] Cher explains why she shifted her business to focus on underrepresented and marginalized voices.

  • [0:05:18] Cher discusses pay inequality and the downside of free publicity in exchange for free content.

  • [0:10:36] Cher describes the necessity of reserach and discussing pay with others in your field, and leaving room open for negotiation.

  • [0:13:12] India describes the two dynamics she’s seeing at play currently as white clients approach black-owned businesses – impatience, or the need to clean up their public image.

  • [0:15:55] Erica explains that being asked to speak for an hour takes far more than one hour of your time.

  • [0:17:16] Erica, India, and Cher describe microagressions and flat-out aggressions they’ve experienced.

  • [0:22:58] Cher, India, and Erica discuss the misconception that all BIPOC have the same experiences with racism and are unfairly expected to know how to teach people about diversity, equity, and inclusion just because they’re people of color.

  • [0:27:30] Cher describes what you have to be willing to risk in order to become a thought leader.

  • [0:32:31] Cher discusses how this moment in time is a chance for BIPOC to set expecatations and define boundaries around income, reputation, and image and stick to them.

  • [0:35:02] India describes the importance of fighting through the fear of stepping up and being a thought leader, because that means risking failure. But people need to do it, anyway.

  • [0:38:43] India discusses how she relies on her support network to hold her accountable for doing her ask-a-day.

  • [0:41:00] Erica discusses the need for a support network, especially when you want to run and hide, and the urgency she feels to help and encourage black and brown voices to create their own narratives and legacies.

       

WHAT’S ONE ACTION YOU CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE DISCUSSION?

“This cycle of inequality will continue if we don't ask for more and risk losing visibility opportunity… You might just hear a no, and that's the worst that could happen.” – Cher Hale

QUOTES

“That's such a shame that we're not getting the diversity and the perspective that we needthat could change us. That could help us make better decisions for our own lifestyles and for our children. And so that became very important to me to tell those stories.” – Cher

“I think that now more than ever, it's urgent that people who are being asked to speak and to help process these complex situations also ask to be compensated no matter what venue they're in.” – Cher

“Black and brown voices are getting the ability right now to step into such a different place, whatever their specialties are, of being a thought leader in that area, that there has to be more empowerment around the stance of: ‘I can say yes. And I can say, I'll get back to you to tell you, you know, specifics and what that might look like.’” – Erica

“I think that it's important to remind people that you cannot put that expectation – that just because someone is of color, that they can answer all of your slavery, history, and DEI questions. That's not how that works. And you expecting that is part of the problem.” – India

“Part of the term [thought leader] requires that you have original, unique thought. And that takes work. And that takes risk. You have to put yourself out there and risk yourself being canceled, essentially, if you ever want to achieve a status of a thought leader. And that's not easy.” – Cher

“We have a chance to set expectations and to define our boundaries and to stick to those. So that future generations can benefit from our willingness to risk a lot, honestly. Our reputations. Our income. You know, our image. And I think that, you know, it's a risk we all have to take if we do want to see change.” – Cher

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Transcript

Erica Courdae (00:00): There are narratives and stories of black and brown voices that need to be heard, need to be more visible, and need to be able to make these stories told by us versus how they are translated through the history books and after we are gone.

So I want you to join me and listen in today as myself, along with Cher Hale of Gingko PR, and India Jackson of Flaunt Your Fire, my lovely co-host, talk about this and give you some context into why it is so important for black and brown narratives to be centered and told through our own voices and why being able to share this helps to be able to create more understanding of what is actually happening, what we need, and how equity can be created.

Time to listen in.

Erica Courdae (01:00): Alrighty. So we are going to jump right into conversation. I am here with India. Hey lady. And I have a special guest with me – she has been here before.

However, there's some things we need to talk about. We didn't get to talk about them the first time. And the timing of this could not make this any more necessary because of the fact that there are some things that I feel like are not brought to the forefront enough, and some conversations that aren't being had.

And so we're going to talk about it today. And so Ms. Cher Hale, I'm going to have you go ahead and reintroduce yourself to those that know you from before and introduce yourself to those that have not seen you here before. Hey hon.

Cher Hale (01:41): Hi, absolutely. So my name is Cher, like the singer. And I am a Taiwanese black American. And I mentioned my heritage first because it drives so much of what I do professionally now.

So I run a PR agency called Gingko Public Relations, and we focus on helping underrepresented and marginalized voices steal the spotlight back so they can tell their own stories with their own voices as opposed to letting the media tell their stories for them, which is what traditionally has happened.

Erica Courdae (02:15): And so I want to bring some attention to something. We talked the last time that you were here about some of the pivots that you had made and how you really wanted to focus on a different demographic than you were working with before. But I also want to dig a little bit deeper into some of the reasons as to why you made that shift.

Cher Hale (02:38): So I was working primarily with upper middle class, white female life coaches for a very long time and they paid the bills. But it didn't fulfill me in a way that I knew that my work should and then I wanted it to. And so it wasn't until a catalyst event happened.

My mother passed away very young at the age of 49, where I had some time to sit back and reflect and wonder and ask myself, you know, what do I want my legacy to be? That it became very clear that I had to tell the stories of voices who weren't traditionally represented in the media.

My mother actually was a romance novelist, if you can believe it. And she had a trilogy of books set in Italy and beyond having a plethora of like hot Italian men and steamy sex, and those stories, it also showed her unique perspective as an immigrant from Taiwan who was half black and half Taiwanese. And she never got a chance to tell those stories or to publish those books.

And I know that this happens all over the world and with tons of different narratives. And I thought, that's such a shame that we're not getting the diversity and the perspective that we needthat could change us. That could help us make better decisions for our own lifestyles and for our children. And so that became very important to me to tell those stories.

Erica Courdae (04:16): And so something that you, I, and India have talked about collectively, and I've talked with India about quite a bit myself, is just the fact that not only are the voices not being heard, but the opportunities are fewer. They look different. And then the compensation that you're receiving is not the same, either.

And so there's this kind of undermining of your value that is showing up. And to me, it kind of seems like a strange parallel to this time right now when black and brown voices are in high demand coming with a side of urgency. "I Need you now!"

And so I'm actually interested to hear kind of your take on the lack of value and transparency in the value of black and brown voices and stories as well as India's take on this. Because I feel like this is not the first time that we've had to have this conversation.

Cher Hale (05:18): Yeah, long before black indigenous people of colors' voices were urgently needed to help frame what we're currently going through and process what's happening with the civil unrest in our society. There's always been an issue with pay, especially for small business owners who are trying to get publicity, right?

So event organizers and virtual event organizers and podcasters, and, you know, producers and editors rely on the fact that business owners or experts are looking for free publicity in exchange for free content.

And so the system has always been set up this way and it has created this unfair expectation that we will always speak for free, that we will always give our advice for free and our time for free, right? This is where like that inequality of time comes into play.

And so I think that now more than ever, it's urgent that people who are being asked to speak and to help process these complex situations also ask to be compensated no matter what venue they're in.

So to a couple of the stories that we were telling before the call, if you're going to go on a free interview for a podcast, offer the host a call with you that's paid to help compensate you for your time. And I think that we need to be asking more for that. And also as white women, or whoever has a platform, offering that.

India Jackson (06:59): Absolutely. I'm going to agree with that completely because I think that on the other side of that can come a devaluation of an intellectual property. If we're not careful, and people continue to provide so much education and content for free, it's a lot like the photography industry, or, you know, insert a lot of other industries along the way here, where people slowly began to just continue to do things for cheap or for free. And at some point there was no value left in it anymore.

Erica Courdae (07:34): But I think that part of that is that fact of, if I already don't get enough visibility, I'm not able to be seen, which means my opportunities look different. My network looks different, my money looks different. Then you get put in this awkward place of, do I risk getting anything in asking for something? Or do I just take the risk and ask anyway, and I just have to deal with the possible loss here? And it can sometimes feel like a very difficult challenge to have to navigate. And personally, I think it shouldn't be a challenge that you should have to navigate. It shouldn't be either or.

India Jackson (08:09): Absolutely.

Cher Hale (08:10): Yeah. It's tough. You're right. I think a lot of the way we set up the online business space or that the way, you know, gurus in the past set it up, had that freebie opt-in model, right, where you put your in your name and email address and you got something for free and then you begin to build a relationship. And most people have been operating from that mentality.

So a part of the solution, I wonder, is if we need to just change the landscape to be less giving everything away for free, to India's point. But also risking asking for more, because if we don't, there are so many other people that are going to... This cycle of inequality will continue if we don't ask for more and risk losing visibility opportunity, but I can guarantee you in all of my experience doing cold outreach to speaking organizers, into podcast hosts, and to editors and producers, is that asking rarely, if ever, ruins the chance for you to be seen in that outlet.

You might just hear a no, and that's the worst that could happen.

Erica Courdae (09:26): So I actually have a question there in that, you know, what is the difference of like me or India or someone that is not coming from a place of actually being the person representing us from that PR standpoint, someone within an agency, is there any difference in what that conversation looks like? What the responses can look like, just kind of that interaction like, what's different there?

Cher Hale (09:59): What I think you're asking is, how do you have that conversation and how do you respond to a potential no, is that right?

Erica Courdae (10:08): I think, yeah. I mean, because I feel like what that conversation could be, could look different between you and that facilitator or that business owner or organizer, versus maybe what it could look like on our side, because of course the only point of reference that we have is what we've experienced and what we've possibly been privy to from other people, not really knowing what the true answer is. Like what the point of reference is.

Cher Hale (10:36): So it's a transparency issue. Totally. So the difference between me having the conversation is that I know what my other clients have been paid, and I know historically what other keynote speakers have been paid in the past for similar talks, right? So I just have a bit more reference than someone who's coming in green, someone who's new to the situation might not have. And to me that's an easily solved problem if you know the right people or you're in the right communities.

So simply asking someone like me or somebody else you know who speaks, or even there are tons of Facebook groups available with speakers of color specifically that have these conversations just to ask, "Hi, I'm, I'm being asked to do this 90-minute presentation on this thing. It includes X, Y, and Z. And I'm thinking of charging this much. Is this the industry rate?” And letting the host know that or letting the person who's supposed to hire you know that you're going to evaluate your options and get back to them with a number is a really important piece of the process. So leaving that room open for negotiation, not feeling like you have to get them an answer on the call, right. Or in an email right away.

India Jackson (11:56): I like that idea of giving yourself some space to really do your research.

Erica Courdae (12:04): I think it's tough because again, that goes back to that place of like, okay, so if I get off this call, then what happens? Like, are you, are you going to still be there? And I think that's that part, I'll say, at least for me where I can say in the past, it's been a thing of like, I can tell myself whatever story in my head and just have fear of losing the opportunity because of that. Like, okay, am I saying the right number? Am I not saying the right number? Am I getting back fast enough? Whatever it is.

And I think that the interesting part about that is that black and brown voices are getting the ability right now to step into such a different place, whatever their specialties are of being a thought leader in that area, that there has to be more empowerment around the stance of: "I can say yes. And I can say, I'll get back to you to tell you, you know, specifics and what that might look like."

India Jackson (13:12): Well, and I wonder, is that urgency really coming from you? Or if many times it's coming from the other person. On my side right now, I feel like I'm seeing a lot of people approach black-owned businesses. I'm seeing to one of two things: either they're approaching you and they're like, "I need it and I need it like yesterday" and they're super impatient. And to me, that's also a red flag, especially when you're looking at a diversity, equity, and inclusion coach, that there may be a sign that this person is just wanting to work with you because it makes them look a certain way publicly.

And that's why they needed it like yesterday. Beause they need to clean up their public image. And that's not what DEI is here to do. It's here to facilitate change.

But the other side that I see is, they'll just kind of step back and, you know, convince themselves that you're too busy. I'm not really seeing much gray area at a time like this, where we're in the middle of literally a revolution or a social justice movement. Yeah, there's not much gray happening.

I'm really curious. Share, if you could, share a little bit about why possibly there has been a lack of transparency in the media world about how much people get paid to speak or are people being compensated for being on television and things like that?

Cher Hale (14:40): I think it's the same rue of what's happening in any other industry where people are being inaccurately or inappropriately paid. It's just not enough people are willing to say what they're being paid or to share what they're being paid.

And so until we have a forum and a safe place to be open and honest about those numbers, we're not going to be able to make informed decisions. And one of the ideas that I've had for a while is to compile as much information as possible across our most relevant industries. And let's get an idea, you know, for 90-minute session, what do you charge? What do you, what does that include and how long do you take to prepare for it? Like what sweat equity are you putting into this presentation before you actually give it? To give people a very realistic perspective on the value of a presentation and what we should be charging, because if they're just, you know, there isn't enough information and if there is information, it's not easily accessible or it's not well-known and that's a problem.

Erica Courdae (15:55): I'm glad you said that because there is work on the front end and the back end of some of these things that I don't think is always being considered. This is not just, you know, "Hey, I spoke for, you know, an hour and you're paying me for an hour of my time." This took me more than an hour of my time.

Cher Hale (16:17): Right. It often takes a decade of work at the least.

India Jackson (16:22): Yes. I won't lie. In the early days, I used to spend hours working on one presentation and you know, sometimes days. And many times in the very beginning, where like you're green, you're new, you don't know what's expected. You don't know if people are paid for these things. That can look like spending days on something that you don't get paid for. And sometimes even like, honestly being undermined when you get asked, "well, we're giving you free access to sell to our people."

Well, from a visibility standpoint, if those people are not the kind of people that are interested in buying the type of service that my company provides, or enrolling into Erica and I's community Pause On the Play: The Community, and, or they're not even interested in working with somebody that looks like me – can we address that elephant in the room? Then there's nothing I gain out of being able to sell to your people.

Erica Courdae (17:16): And so that piece of the fact that like, I look the way I look, I want to talk more about that because that does play a role. And I'm going to say that it plays more of a role than I think people feel comfortable acknowledging, because being someone personally that has, I don't know how many times over my life, been told once somebody meets me in person or sees my face, "Oh, I didn't realize you were black. I thought you were white." Did that change something? What difference does that make? What's the impact on –

India Jackson (17:53): I think all three of us actually could probably agree with that one.

Cher Hale (17:56): Absolutely.

Erica Courdae (17:58): And it's like, okay. So does that change my check? What are we doing?

India Jackson (18:03): Yeah. I'm pretty sure that all three of us – and I'm sure you as well, Cher – have at some point been mistaken off of voice alone for somebody who is not of color. And that's been a thing too.

Cher Hale (18:17): Oh yeah. I mean, even growing up, my friends used to call me a Twinkie cause I was yellow on the outside and white on the inside.

Erica Courdae (18:25): Oh Lord. See, I got Oreo.

Cher Hale (18:26): People forget that I'm Asian, even when I'm right in front of them.

Erica Courdae (18:32): I didn't even, I would have never thought about it. Cause again, I've gotten Oreo.

India Jackson (18:37): That is my first time hearing Twinkie. Okay.

Erica Courdae (18:40): I've never heard that. Oh Lord.

India Jackson (18:42): For black people, It's Oreo. Chocolate on the outside. White on the inside.

Cher Hale (18:46): Yeah. I love how they make microaggressions seemingly sweet.

Erica Courdae (18:51): Right? It's like, wait, so how many ways can you insult me? Let's see how many foods you can pull in. What you got?

India Jackson (18:59): My favorite – "you're so articulate." And it's like, oh, so black people are supposed to speak a certain way?

Erica Courdae (19:06): Obama has been the only president we've ever had that has ever been referred to that way. And I'm like, why is it that you have to talk about the fact that he is so articulate? He is articulate and he is well-spoken, however, you have never said that about anybody else ever, ever, like, this is like, what is that? And that's when people say that and then it's like, what do you mean? It was a compliment. And I'm like, you missed the whole mark. And that's all a whole nother conversation, to convince somebody that what you said was hurtful and offensive.

And it's not even truly a microaggression, it's an aggression. And you don't understand how that can make somebody feel. And how that can resonate with somebody. And that whole piece of identity, and how you how you perceive yourself and how others are perceiving you and where that intersection is. Like, for me, that shows up a lot because my kids are half white and half black. And if you want to be specific they're half black. I'm gonna say, hey, because I'm just gonna take that whole half. And then you know, my husband is half French Canadian and half Italian. So they've got, you know, three different things that they're comprised of. And I don't want anyone to distill them down to such a narrow judgment.

India Jackson (20:28): Yeah, I think I definitely want anyone listening to take note that we're having a conversation about three women of color, you know, getting paid fair pay to speak, and we sound – I'm going to put in air quotes – "like a white person." Because that is not a thing. But could you only imagine what that looks like for somebody who may use more slang or has more of like an urban or edgy appeal to them? Like it's that much harder.

Erica Courdae (21:03): And I do curse. So I'm like, okay. So if you heard me on the podcast and you caught me on an episode where I'm ranting and I'm cussing up a fucking storm. Yes. I said, fuck. Is that going to change what you want to pay me?

Cher Hale (21:17): Yeah. How does option and bias play into that decision making factor, right?

Erica Courdae (21:23): Exactly. And you have to see this front and center when it comes to other people, and how this could, you know, be a part of maybe how they process you.

Cher Hale (21:34): Well, Erica, I'm actually curious now that you bring this up, if someone – if you suspect that someone might be having an unconscious bias that is affecting their decision to hire or not hire you or pay you a certain wage, do you think that it's a fair opportunity to educate them about that? And what would you say?

Erica Courdae (21:59): I think it depends on the person. I have not had anybody that would actually show all of it. And so they would likely – it's like, if you're a racist, you keep it under your skirt, you don't bring it out. So I feel like they just won't show it with me because they are a little bit more afraid to be called out. And if anything, I've had people that have said, "Oh, I want you to do XYZ." And you know, maybe they seemed like it was for the right reasons at that time and down the road, it's like, oh, oh, that was you tokenizing me full-blown. And you just wanted to hide behind my face and say, "Look what I did. I'm a good white person." Right? And so the question becomes, can you see it enough at that point to acknowledge it? Or are you that good at being covert about your racism?

Cher Hale (22:58): Yeah. That's so fascinating because there's so much talk right now about how white people have to educate themselves about anti-racism. But what continues to surface for me is how much, I don't know about my own identity and how to articulate that and how to explain what it means, what, like systemic racism even means. So there's so much education that white people think we have because we're of color, but it's not realistic to assume that if you aren't already a DEI practitioner. Right? And so I think that's a misconception that I really want people to think about when they do ask a brown or black person to explain something to them, to do this extra work that we don't necessarily have the qualifications to do.

India Jackson (23:50): Absolutely. I think that you know, we talked about that here on the podcast before that it's, it's very degrading in my opinion to expect that just because someone is of color, that they have the knowledge, the education and experience of somebody who is a certified DEI coach. Just like you would feel really weird for somebody to assume that, you know, every white woman, because you had one white woman therapist, it can answer questions about your human psychology. Like that's just not how that works. You know?

And so I think that it's important to remind people that you cannot put that expectation – that just because someone is of color, that they can answer all of your, you know, slavery history and DEI questions. That's not how that works. And you expecting that is part of the problem.

Erica Courdae (24:48): It is, it is. And it's assuming that everyone has had the same experience. Because I have met people that, what racism looked like to them did not look like what it looked like to me, did not look like what it looked like to the next person. And so to assume that everybody's experience is now this fill-in-the-block puzzle piece, because you know, news flash, we're not all one person. That's a problem because you are automatically excluding who they are as an individual. What their independent frame of reference is. What their family of origin is. What their experiences are, that have shaped them up to this point. And so there's this place of like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna ask my one black friend. I'm gonna ask the black girl down the hall in the cubical." Wait, what?

India Jackson (25:38): You know, it's stereotyping at its finest, but there's something you said earlier that I want to come back to, which was the fact that you curse, you speak your mind, you're willing to call people up. I like to think that you call people out more than you call them out.

Erica Courdae (25:56): It's been a little more calling out recently, but I'm gonna be honest, last week it was, it was what it was, but normally it is up. Correct.

India Jackson (26:04): Sometimes that's necessary too. However, you know, there does come that question of like, is that going to affect what opportunities that you get when you are looking to step on more stages or be on more podcasts. And I really want to bring this back to you, Cher, and your expertise, because I think that what we're looking at is, you know, the three of us might be considered thought leaders. I have my own opinions about that word, but I truly want to know your perspective of what makes a thought leader. And dare I say, isn't part of what makes a thought leader being a little bit more willing to speak their mind than the next person?

Cher Hale (26:52): This question has been on my mind for months India. And it's something that all of my clients, every single one, they come to me and they'd say, "Cher, I want to be a thought leader. I want to amplify my thought leadership platform." And I say, "Great. What does that mean to you?" And they never have an answer for me because nobody knows what it means. It's really nebulous, this idea of thought leadership. And in most people's minds, if they want to be famous, they want to be like Oprah. They want to be like Ellen.

India Jackson (27:25): But that doesn't mean you have any thoughts.

Cher Hale (27:30): Right. Part of the term, it requires that you have original, unique thought. And that takes work. And that takes risk. You have to put yourself out there and risk yourself being canceled, essentially, if you ever want to achieve a status of a thought leader. And that's not easy. People aren't always going to agree. And I think in your recent episode on Flaunt Your Fire, you were talking about how you're either going to attract or repel people. There is no in between. And so you have to figure out where you put your line in the sand and not everyone is willing to do that. And not everyone even has the skill set to figure out what they think so they can do that. And that's a real problem as well.

Erica Courdae (28:18): Yeah. See, so this is where I think it's an interesting thing because I think that people just want to be known and somehow this desire to be seen kind of almost trumps the necessity for a message. The necessity for, you know, this actual like, "Oh, I didn't think about that." And being able to show up with that and, and yes, be willing to polarize.

India Jackson (28:49): So I wouldn't be myself to not ask you your perspective as well, Cher, on this thought leadership, like from a PR standpoint. Are event hosts and are television platforms really looking for thought leaders, or are they looking for people who are famous, and do they know the difference between the two?

Cher Hale (29:15): We have to remember that almost everything is driven and motivated by money. And when we remember that, when we have that in our frame of reference, we can understand why they choose celebrities or influencers over true thought leaders. I would prefer to see London Breed, the mayor of San Francisco, on many a TV show expressing her thoughts and opinions. But they're not going to choose her. They're going to choose like Lauren Bostic, who runs [inaudible] to discuss her thoughts instead, which to me is mind-blowing.

But I understand because she's going to bring in revenue for the business, whereas London Breed might not. And so there is this frustrating paradox of who really creates a thought leader and who gets to call themselves one. Now, is it given to us, this status, or do we claim it for ourselves? And I'm still wrestling with that question.

Erica Courdae (30:28): And so I want to ask, so kind of what I'm hearing is that you're almost having to choose between being a thought leader and being famous slash having that influence.

Cher Hale (30:41): Oh yeah. It's the classic "Do I sell out?" story. How willing am I to put, to leave behind my values and to play the game until I reach a status where it's my game, or I can say whatever I want and no one is above me controlling my income or my livelihood.

India Jackson (31:05): I'm curious to know if you believe that there's space to be both.

Cher Hale (31:09): I do think there is. And I, more than ever, I have hope that we're reaching a place where there's room for all of that in one person. Unfortunately, because of the patriarchy and the systemic racism that we live in, others who fit the mold, white women who are beautiful, typically are going to get preferential treatment over those who have unique, life-changing perspectives to offer. So I think there is room for both. I have hope, definitely. I've always have. I'm a cautious optimist. I have cautious optimism in my life. But I do recognize the reality of the situation, which is that money runs money runs the game. Money fuels the engine.

Erica Courdae (32:05): So do you think that right now, with the climate that we're in, that this possibly holds an opportunity for this to shift? Like a place where possibility can actually kind of turn the tides and make it more likely to be a thing than what this could have been, let's say two weeks ago, three weeks ago.

Cher Hale (32:31): Yeah. I'm so glad you asked this because now, in this moment, we have the unique chance to set a precedent for the future in a way that, you know, when things aren't in upheaval, people aren't going to listen as closely or as carefully as they might right now. And so we have a chance to set expectations and to define our boundaries and to stick to those. So that future generations can benefit from our willingness to risk, risk a lot, honestly. Our reputations. Our income. You know, our image. And I think that, you know, it's a risk we all have to take if we do want to see change. We have to risk rejection.

And you know, we're not all willing to do those things. And I understand that we're not all in a position where we can do those things. But those who can, who have the privilege to be able to do so, who can be allies and advocates for this cause absolutely need to be speaking up and out about it. Otherwise, you know, everything could settle down, let's say in a couple of months, and what happens is like scope creep, where things start to creep back to how they used to be. But we are the culture makers, right? And we have to uphold this hard line for ourselves or risk things never changing.

Erica Courdae (34:03): And so you said something that India wants you to chime in on as well, in the sense of, you know, what does it look like to kind of step in at this point and be able to kind of take that risk, to take ownership of almost creating your own legacy? Because a lot of what I feel like the disruption that's happening right now, is around the fact that so much of what we know and what we've been told has been curated by those in a place of power. And so truth and accuracy are not really there.

And so I feel like there's a possibility right now that what you're saying leads to the fact that we have an opportunity to write our stories and to create our legacy – what we hope to be our legacies – based on having that opportunity to choose and not having to be resigned to what someone else decides we need to be memorialized as, or lack thereof.

India Jackson (35:02): I think that that's part of it. I'm also going to say a big part of what I'm seeing be relevant right now is people taking a moment to acknowledge their fear of stepping up. Their fear of being this leader. Because you can't be a thought leader without being a leader, right? And acknowledge it, process it, and still do the fucking thing. You have to be willing to fail.

And I guess that we both plan on having Donnie Jackson who's said it, you know, himself, that willingness to fail spectacularly can carry us so far. Because even when you fail, there are lessons to learn. There's data to collect from that failure that you can apply to the next thing. But for people to continue to be in this place of fear of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing. Not getting that opportunity. Scarcity that there won't be another opportunity if they ask for their fair pay, to be able to ask for that fair pay again. You know, that is what is going to prevent us from changing things.

We have to first acknowledge that our fear is there because ignoring it is not going to serve us. And we also need that support and accountability to stay in motion regardless and know that no matter how big the failure is going to be, that there's going to be valuable information and data that we can apply to the next thing.

India Jackson (36:39): Also, the beautiful side of that is if you're willing to go out and ask for the amount of pay you deserve, have that talk and speak about that thing that you know can change things for people, no matter how it might make someone else feel uncomfortable. And the other side of that, if you have a success, it is going to be a spectacular success that could go viral that could completely change the game, whether it's viral in a sense of popularity or viral in a sense of changing people's lives. But we have to be willing to fail in order to get there.

Erica Courdae (37:15): You can't be afraid of missing the shot that you have yet to take. It doesn't help us. And so if you were to make a suggestion or give a piece of advice, or implore those listening that have something to say, and they have a voice that needs to be heard, and that they are a changemaker inherently, is there anything that you would give, say, support with? And I'm asking this question to you, Cher, and as well to you, India. What would you kind of give?

Cher Hale (37:55): I, well, actually this is a perfect story about India is that she practices doing one ask a day. And I think that that's a perfect place to start. Something easy and tangible for you to hold on to. Ask someone how much they charge for a 60-minute interview or presentation. Ask somebody to introduce you to someone else who's influential in their network. Ask someone else to have you on their podcast, or to have a connection call. When you begin to make those asks, you can create the momentum and the confidence necessary to be able to put yourself out there and risk rejection. But also, you know, like India said, succeed spectacularly as well. You just don't know what's gonna happen and you can't assume.

India Jackson (38:43): Yeah. And I want to be fully transparent. I have that ask-a-day because I feel like confidence for me, and the willingness to invite people into the things that we sell, we do, we offer, to build relationships is like a muscle. If I don't get in the gym and work out my muscles every day, I'm going to start losing muscle mass. Well, I found that the same has been true for me, for my fearlessness and my confidence. I have to practice putting myself out there every day. And I've found that when I've done that it's gotten easier with time.

It won't happen overnight. I mean, even podcasting was something that I had immense fear about publicly speaking, getting on stages, asking for pay, but the more you do it the more ease comes with it. So I want to say that I didn't just like randomly come up with this. I came up with the ask-a-day because I needed that for myself to keep me accountable. But one thing I will say on the other side of that is, surrounding yourself with people that are not yes-men and are going to really call you up. And at times when you need it, give you that kick in your ass and call you out. Cause sometimes we need that too.

And I really am super, super, super, super grateful. And that's probably like not even enough words to express how I feel about it for having both you, Cher, and you Erica, in my network and in my support system. Because you know, that has kept me making sure I'm doing those asks-a-day. I'm making sure I'm submitting myself to speaking engagements. Calling me out when even I went to go and hide because this whole revolution has been very traumatic for people of color too. I just want to acknowledge that.

And I've had some really rough days where I'm in tears and yet knowing that I have both of you looking to me and here to support me, whether I need the kick in my butt or the pep-talk, you know, has made me stay on track. And so I think for anyone listening, I want you to remember that you can't do this alone. None of us are doing this alone in this conversation, no matter how successful you think we are.

Erica Courdae (41:00): No, no, no, no, no, not even close. There are days that I just wanted to hide. And it was the support system that I have that kept me from, I mean, and it's not that I didn't want to do it, but I'm human too. And I have my own processing to do with what's going on as a black woman in America. And so these are the times that you do need that support system.

And I'm also gonna, you know, from my point of view, say that it also gives another set of urgency and importance from my view to the necessity for black and brown voices to write their own narratives and to add their voices and their stories, to the collective whole. Because there are a lot of things that I'm seeing look like they want to shift, and I hope that they shift and they shift for, you know, for good and for, you know, on more of a permanent level. And I know that that's also going to require us to up the amount of what we contribute to, again, kind of what our legacy is. What do we leave behind? What's the story? What is that? And I don't want it to be told through a whitewashed lens and it's not because I don't think that it can be done by somebody that is white.

It's the sense of, it shouldn't have to be that the only way that it can be told is by somebody white. I want to be able to control what it is that I say I experienced, I stand for, and what I want to change. And I just implore black and brown and marginalized people to own and to tell their stories and their narratives.

Erica Courdae (42:51): I thank both of you for being here and for allowing the audience to hear this conversation, because I think it needs to be heard. And I think there's a lot of things that have been happening that we focused on. And I think that there are some other pieces of it that are happening along with the revolution. And I think that the storytelling and the ownership and the transparency and the thought leader piece, all of these are parts of a bigger whole. And so for you contributing your voice to this narrative today on this podcast, I thank you.

Cher Hale (43:22): Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

India Jackson (43:24): Thank you.

Erica Courdae (43:26): If you enjoyed this podcast, show us some love by subscribing, share with a friend, or come on over and leave us a review. You know that reviews are the fuel to keep the podcast engine going. Let's get more people dropping the veil, challenging their thoughts, feelings, and actions. As always, we love being here and creating the bridge for you to walk over, to become the change that you want to see. So join us next time and until then keep the dialogue going. Bye.