60. Why Your Questions Aren't Harmless
For context, we’re in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd and people are seeking...stuff. It may be guidance, information, or validation. This episode is a conversation between Erica + India about what questions and interactions are helpful...and what isn’t. There are a lot of good intentions out there that are misdirected. Here you’ll hear the perspectives of two white women on what’s truly helpful, what’s not, and what’s just perpetuating the problem.
Before you start a current events conversation with a black stranger, neighbor, or friend, check yourself:
What are your intentions here? Be honest.
Do some research so you can ask intelligent questions.
Ask: are you asking one person to speak for their entire demographic?
Is the person you’re approaching a professional who should be compensated for their time?
Are you expecting someone else to do your emotional heavy lifting?
Are you ready to listen in? What’s Happening In This Episode
[0:01:32] Why good intentions are not enough
[0:03:09] On screwing up and trying to erase it
[0:04:19] One person in a particular demographic can’t speak for the entire demographic
[0:06:12] Dig deep and do your homework before you speak or ask
[0:09:57] Context for this whole discussion: back-to-back killings of three black people in America that is all over the media
[0:16:36] The random black stranger and your few black friends can’t speak for the whole demographic
[0:19:38] On seeking validation for your “efforts”
[0:26:28] How Pause on the Play Community plays a supportive role here.
[0:27:30] What can you do? Be in action
WHAT’S ONE ACTION YOU CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE DISCUSSION?
I want you to dig deeper… I want you to be listening and paying attention to more black voices and taking in the types of information that you need to inform your actions.” + Erica
QUOTES
“Trying is not doing. And so I think that there is a difference between using your voice to talk about something and using your voice to get people, including yourself, to do something.” + India
“Good intentions and your heart being in the right place doesn't necessarily equal a good result. It doesn't mean that you're still not doing some harm or you're not doing some things that are problematic.” + India
“Stop putting responsibility on one black person to be the mouthpiece for all of us. Please stop.” + Erica
“The answers can likely be found, number one, by looking around. The answers are really there if you're willing to be receptive enough to see and hear and feel them.” + Erica
“If you perpetuate an archetype of a person, well, I'm going to call a spade and spade until you understand that your white privilege is actually costing black lives.” + Erica
“Just because you have a black friend doesn't mean that they're qualified to answer very specific questions about what facilitates change in the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion.” + India
“I would rather you say nothing than to say something just so you can make yourself or your business look good. That's a slap in the face. Don't help me just to help yourself.” + India
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Transcript
Erica: Hello, hello, welcome back to Pause of the Play. As always, it is amazing to see you here where you are challenged to examine your beliefs, question your predisposed notions, and consider realities you may be unfamiliar with in order to understand that they too are real.
I am your host and conversation MC for the day, Erica Courdae, along with my cohost, India Jackson, here to get the dialog going.
India: Hey.
Erica: Hey, hey. For those of you that have been here before, welcome back. You already kind of are likely familiar with everything that's going on over on social. Those of you that are new, welcome. And you are probably likely aware too of what's going on over on social. And so, as always, you know that a lot of times this is about India and I having open, honest conversation and what comes from it.
Essentially, I'm kind of letting you know what's going on happen, but we're just going to kind of go into it because there were some things that came up, and she was asking me some questions, and I was asking her some questions, and some things came up. And so there are some things that need to be talked about, about some of the actions, or lack thereof, that is out here happening right now. And so, India, what's on your mind right now?
India: I think what's on my mind is first, there are a lot of people out there who are trying to do the right thing, so I want to acknowledge you for that. I think that a lot of people's heart is in the right place, and they really are wanting to start the process of changing some things in our world.
Erica: I'm going to pause for you a second on that. Can you pull from the Star Wars thing and quote and be like "Don't try. Do." Sorry.
India: Yes.
Erica: Just sayin'.
India: You jumped to my next point. Trying is not doing. And so I think that there is a difference between using your voice to talk about something and using your voice to get people, including yourself, to do something.
Now, both are necessary. But I do want to remind people that I believe that it's both. It's having the conversations and doing something.
And so there's a lot of people out there trying to do the right thing. Your heart's in the right place. For that, we say thank you. Or at least I say thank you. I appreciate you for even being open to consider realities that might not be your own and using your voice for change.
And I also want to remind you that good intentions and your heart being in the right place doesn't necessarily equal a good result. It doesn't mean that you're still not doing some harm or you're not doing some things that are problematic.
Erica: There's an old saying -- who knows where it came from -- but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Good intentions or noble thoughts and things that flutter through, "Yes, let's do that," and it's like, yeah, that's awesome, and that was some trash. It can be both.
What I kind of want to remind people of is that, if in life, you will do something and screw up and apologize, I need you to remember that that can happen in doing this work too. So you can, and likely will, screw up. Do not erase it. That's a whole other thing. And I keep telling you I'm going to do a whole thing on that, but please stop erasing what you think is the proof. People got receipts. People are taking your screenshots. People know what you did. And people know, period, point-blank. The impact is still there.
You can't get away from it. You have to just kind of adjust and keep going from there, but you have to remember that your good intentions are not enough alone.
India: Yeah. Specifically where I see this coming up is a lot of conversation around maybe something that was done was because someone else told you to do, or you saw someone else do it. Whether they were white or black, it doesn't really matter. Or you asked your black friend, and they told you that this was how it should be done.
Erica: Stop putting responsibility on one black person to be the mouthpiece for all of us. Please stop. Do you want one white person speaking for you?
There's an orange squatter over at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Would you want him to be the only person speaking for you? Please stop that.
India: When I think about this, I'm like, okay. There's a lot of people who don't look like me. For those of you that are new, I am another black female. There's a lot of clients that we have in our marketing agency that don't look like me, and I do think that in wanting to do the right thing and wanting to support, they are wanting to contribute. Right? Part of that desire means that they're asking questions.
And I want your take on if I am a person who is not a person of color right now, or maybe I'm a person of color, but I'm not an African American person, and I'm looking for guidance, I'm looking to facilitate some changes with my voice and my platform, and I have questions, what are some things that you think that I should consider as I'm going into possibly asking these questions of someone?
Erica: Before you can even get into that, I kind of want that thought to be there of "Why am I asking this person to answer this in the first place?" I want to dig into the fact of are you asking because this is your only person of reference that's black? Are you asking because you saw their stuff online and now you're going to put everything squarely on this one person's shoulders? Are you asking because you're not willing to do the work to figure out the answer for yourself? Are you asking because you're looking for some validation to center your whiteness?
First, why are you asking? Why this person?
India: Yeah. And so it also makes me think of have you done any of the work on your own yet? Did you google?
Erica: Please go to Google first. Brother Google is there for you. Please do not skip figuring out what you can on your own. Going to a black person, or any person of color with these questions, these things that you're looking for answers, we're not here to give you answers. Paid or unpaid, we're here to give you context, because the answers can likely be found, number one, by looking around. The answers are really there if you're willing to be receptive enough to see and hear and feel them.
However, you've got a whole internet, a whole internet to go figure out before you come and say, "Well, I don't know why this is a problem. I don't know why I said that and the person felt the way that they felt. They just misunderstood me, and I don't know why that happened." Mm-mm.
India: It's kind of like the difference between asking me how to use Instagram versus how to use Instagram specifically for your business to get the result that you're looking for. Those are two very different questions.
Erica: Because how to use Instagram... There are how many different things out here that you can look up for that? You don't need to waste my time or your time for that, coming to me and then you paying me for that.
India: You can pay me, I'll tell you, but that's probably not the best use of your time with me.
Erica: No, it's not. There is a point to where people are getting lazy. People are so used to being spoon-fed and everything is just given to you. Go do your work. Go do your work.
If somebody that looks like me as a black woman has to figure out for herself what she needs to do and raising her kids and feeling as safe as possible within the current landscape... I've got to figure that out on my own. You better go figure that shit out. You better go figure it out. You don't come and put the responsibility and the emotional labor and all the effort -- I can go into that later. But don't come dumping in on somebody else like, "Here, figure this out for me and tell me how to do it."
There are some business places where I can understand that, and you will pay for that, but when it comes to this, that is emotional labor, and that is a part of you working through your white privilege and your white centering and your anti-racism efforts that need to happen. And so don't outsource that. That's a part of your process and a part of your journey that you need to go through. You need to experience that. Don't outsource that.
India: Playing devil's advocate here... If I am now this person, and I feel like “Okay, I've gone and I've googled some things. I've taken in some content. I've listened to some podcasts,” at what point is it okay to ask a question?
Erica: I feel like are three, almost four, but I'm going to say three main things that I feel like I kind of want you to consider. And the first is just the fact that if you're going to ask a question after you've done your research and you've taken in information and you've started your emotional journey, deposited into the bank of that, so to speak, number one, are you expecting this person to speak for all people of [insert group here]? Does this person have to speak for all black people? Does this person have to speak for all black trans people? Does this person have to speak for all Muslim women?
Whatever the thing is, are you expecting this one person to be the mouthpiece for everyone and the end-all-be-all for you to go out here and do the "My one black friend said..."? Don't do that.
India: Can we elaborate on that for a second? I'd love to. Right now, as this is being recorded, we are amongst multiple back-to-back killings of black people that were put into the media. And I say that that way because this happens all the time, right? We're recording on a Tuesday. This is a Tuesday in America for black people. It just happened that all of a sudden, it's all in the media and people are upset.
Erica: And for a quick pause, I'm going to say three of those names -- Brianna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, and George Floyd. Please continue.
India: So as this is being recorded, that is what's going on. But there is also hate crimes against other groups. There are also many other times where these things will come up, and I think it's important to say that thought process that you can just ask your gay friend when a gay hate crime is put in the media or you can just ask the black friend and expect that their answer applies for all gay people or all black people is completely inappropriate, number one. Number two, it shows just how much more work there is to be done to think that one person, just because of their skin color, is just like every other person of their skin color. You are perpetuating the fucking problem.
Erica: Yep.
India: Because it would be a problem if I thought that all white people were the same.
Erica: They're like... First of all, the Karens, the Amys, all y’all don't like Karen. You're up in arms and are comparing Karen to the word "nigger." You are all y’all at that point because the actions and the stereotype is pretty goddamn stereotypical and the same. But if you don't like it, then why are you going to think that one person then speaks for an entire group of diverse people?
If you don't want to receive it, don't give it, but also understand that if you perpetuate an archetype of a person, well, I'm going to call a spade and spade until you understand that your white privilege is actually costing black lives.
India: I don't want to get too far off track, but tells me we need to go into another conversation another day, because the difference between “Karen” and "nigger" is "nigger" was used against all black people. “Karen” is used against a specific type of white person.
Erica: Not all white people or all white women.
India: So, yes, stop expecting one black person to speak for an entire race of people. It makes me think about... Because I had a white male therapist at one point in my life, it would be crazy to think I can just go and ask any white male to answer psychology-related questions.
Erica: Well, and what you said, I'm going to give number two based on that. You just made a really good point in that if somebody gets paid for this, are you asking for free labor? Because what you just said is a thing. If a person is a therapist, it took you time, effort, and money to get there, and you get paid for this.
India: Oh, he got paid well with my money.
Erica: Exactly. So you wouldn't sit next to him at the barbecue and be like "So you know what I was a kid, this happened to me, and I just want to know do you think that's a problem?" Where the f*** are you going? What are you doing? No.
So don't show up on social media posts, in groups, in threads, in DMs, at the doctor's office, in the line at the Target, any of the above, asking people questions when it's like "Oh, I get paid for this." And then looking at them sideways when they want to slide you the link. You better hit this "Pay me" button. You better hit this here "Pay me" button.
When you do that, that goes to the third one, and this is where I want to go back to the first thing I said in the sense that are you expecting them to do your emotional labor? Because there are times -- we're going to go back to the example of standing in line at the Target -- and you just ask a question.
"Oh, I just asked a question. I don't why you got so defensive. We were just having a conversation." But if I get paid to have a conversation, I'm not going to answer you for free. And I'm not going to answer you without any context, without any other contributing factors and be expected to answer this for you to then walk out and call your girlfriend with the thumbs up that you're good because you just got a black person to check off the box for you. Don't. No.
India: I also want to say that that goes beyond just the random stranger at Target. It goes to your black friend. Just because you have a black friend doesn't mean that they're qualified to answer very specific questions about what facilitates change in the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Erica: First of all, if you keep talking about them like "I have a black friend," please fix yourself.
India: If you can count... We've even had this conversation here before.
Erica: Yes.
India: A long time ago when we first got started with this podcast. But if you can count -- one, two, three -- black friends, you might need to take a quick look in the mirror.
Erica: There are some people that ain't got the three. They've barely got the one. So if you find that one friend you made on the internet and you expect them to check off all your actions, will you stop dumping that shit on them? That's not their responsibility. And again, stop centering your whiteness to get them to sign off on the fact that, yeah, it's okay. My friend gave me a temporary black card. F*** out of here. F*** out of here. Stop it. Don't. Don't.
I talked about this on a live that I did on IG in the sense of like you're essentially looking for somebody to validate you to make you feel better. You want a black person to validate you as a white person to feel better about your efforts about us getting killed, and it's not okay? Wait. Wait. Are we doing this?
India: It's really bothered me as a person of color, as a business owner, it's been very disappointing, triggering -- to say the least -- to watch people that, even with the beat intentions, their actions are still rooted in selfishness, self-centeredness, needing to center it back onto them of "Look, I'm doing the things."
Honestly -- and other people may feel different. I can't speak for all black people, hence the whole purpose of this episode -- but for me personally, I would rather you say nothing than to say something just so you can make yourself or your business look good. That's a slap in the face. Don't help me just to help yourself.
Erica: No, and that's where I'm going to say that with me seeing all of these white female business owners pulling from the official white woman's caption handbook of what--
India: Thank you for saying that. We will be diving into that on the Flaunt Your Fire and bit deeper. Did somebody give everybody a script for their email newsletters and their freaking captions? Because I swear, it seems like there was some white woman handbook response for what's going on right now. It's reminding me of the start of COVID. You count treat people dying the way that you... What the f*** is happening here?
Erica: Right. Don't do the "Here I did this so you don't come for me response." No. Because if you're pulling some bullshit, they're still going to come for you. You must not have been introduced to black Twitter. Black Twitter will come for you, period. Please don't. You have no idea. So when you come and you do this foolishness because you don't want them to come for you, first of all, let's go with the "them." We didn't hit the "them." They are going to come for you anyway because enough is enough.
Because what you're doing is representative of a bigger problem. What you're doing is representative of the struggle in a system that allowed a white police officer to keep his knee on somebody's neck for nine minutes and not give a full-flying f*** because he felt like he was above the law and that that man's life was below him.
India: Whoo. All the chills. All the chills.
Erica: Honestly, that's kind of that last thing I want you to question. Is this what a person does? Because if that's what they do, you talk to that person, and you compensate them. But stop asking the random person or the one black person that you are friends with or the one gay person that you're friends with or the person that lives next door that is just there by proximity that you just want to be able to claim, don't ask them to do the work of a professional. I'm not a therapist, so don't ask me to do a therapist's work. I'm going to send you to a therapist.
But it's the same way. You ask me to do your taxes, I'm going to send you to an accountant. So stop asking the black person on the block to validate your ass because that's still centering your whiteness. And that's still white privilege talking.
India: Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with facilitating change. Can we acknowledge that?
Erica: Hell no.
India: It's faux work. It's fake work.
Erica: It's performance. It's like "See, I asked the questions. I'm concerned. I'm interested." Are you though? Or you just want to be able to now have your contribution through the white-woman's caption handbook, that you could put out there to be able to say you did it. No, no. Stop checking blocks as women have to bury their babies. Stop checking blocks as protesters are out here putting their lives on the line and doing it for the right reasons as the person not doing it for the right reasons is next to them busting out a window. Like, see, they did it. You have no idea what you're contributing to as a system when you do that.
India: Yeah. I want to recap. What I'm taking away -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is, number one, we get that you're trying to do the right thing, but sometimes good intentions don't equal good results. So just be mindful of how are you going about doing the right thing.
Ask yourself why are you asking the question. Did you already do a little bit of research on the question that you were asking before you asked it so that when you ask, you're coming in for context and texture of how this applies to you or your business or your family.
And then when you've come to that conclusion that, yes, I'm in a place where I've done a little bit of labor on my own, I have an educated question now instead of just a blanket question, you need to ask yourself three things.
Am I expecting somebody to speak for their entire race? Because that's some f***sh**.
Erica: Race or group or demographic.
India: Yes, all the above. Because that's some f***sh**.
Erica: Correct.
India: Number two, is the person I'm asking somebody that gets paid to answer this question?
And number three, whether they get paid or not, am I expecting them to do the emotional labor for me?
I want to add another one in there. If the answer to "Do they get paid for this" is a no, you really need to ask yourself why are you not seeking the support of a specialist, of somebody who specializes in whatever it is your question is which, right now on the radar, is diversity, equity, and inclusion. But I can say that you can probably take that question and ask yourself that about almost any question you have. It could be marketing. It could be branding. It could be fashion. It could be your wardrobe. Why are you not enlisting a professional that you can ask that question to instead of just some random person who may not know much about that?
Erica: Agree. All of the above.
And so the thing that I want to tell you is that there is a number of things that you can do to begin to do your antiracist, imperfect allyship work. However, it's not easy, and it sometimes can feel like you're doing it alone. And this is part of the reason why we created Pause on the Play, the Community. Because the work that I do in DEI, which I'm going to be honest with you, it's coaching, period. DEI is the lens, but it's how is this affecting my life? How is this affecting my thoughts and my approach? And how can I do better? And I want to be a better individual. I want to care more about what's going on around me because I'm willing to see it.
So in the community we talk about that. And the people that are in there talk about it together. They support each other. And we talk about what it looks like when this is in your marketing. Refer back to that white-woman's handbook of captions, why that's not okay.
We talked yesterday about why you need to adjust your automatic captions going out to make sure that you're not sending out some f***sh** that is inappropriate and now you've got a shit storm because of that. And so these are the types of things that we talk about. I know money is not great for everyone, however, it is $97 a month.
India: That's exactly why we offer the community, because we understand that our $700 price point for two-to-one coaching isn’t accessible to everyone. I can speak for both of us when I say that I think we both value the ability to make our services available at any economic price point.
Erica: Correct. And the fact that what's happening is to be able to close the economic-wealth gap. And so you being a better business means that you are helping to fuel two businesses of women of color, and that does support closing the wealth gap. So this is also you being a part of change as well in doing that.
So you can come on over to PauseOnThePlay.com/community. We hit the record and let you all know what we have to say. We'll figure out the rest. So, yes, you can come over and do that. The biggest thing that I could ask of anybody right now is to be in action. So I want you to have the conversations. I want you to figure out the things that you need to add context to what you're doing. I want you to dig deeper. I want you to figure out the impact that you can make, but I do want you to be in action. I want you to be listening and paying attention to more black voices and taking in the types of information that you need to inform your actions. But again, actions.
And as always, we appreciate you listening. So go ahead, enjoy yourself today. Make the most of it, and we'll see you next time.