190. Independence vs Interdependence: What's the difference?
Interdependence and Community
In the United States, we live with a cultural narrative of hyper-independence. We make it on our own.
But there is nothing we do that isn’t in some way supported by someone else, whether it’s the person who delivers our packages, the farmers who grow our food, or the skilled tradespeople who keep our infrastructure running. The often invisible labor of others allows us to perpetuate the lie that we are independent.
The truth is, humans are interdependent by nature and communities can’t exist without interdependence.
Erica and India discuss how interdependence shows up in The Pause on the Play Community, in their work, and in their lives, from collaboration to compost.
Listen on your favorite podcast player or keep reading to learn:Defining individualism and interdependence
How concepts of community, collaboration, and interdependence have shaped The Pause on the Play® Community
The myth of American exceptionalism and the truth of interdependence
How fostering interdependence also supports equity and inclusion in your DEI efforts
How interdependence can show up in your community
Fostering Collaboration and Community
On the Pause on the Play® podcast, India Jackson (she/her) says that when thinking through fostering a culture of interdependence we first have to think about community. She says community is a term that is getting used more and more in different contexts, and many times without a clear definition of what community is.
“When you have a word that’s starting to get popular to use, we start diluting it. It starts to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and that can create confusion about what even is community.”
Before they even created The Pause on the Play Community, India says she and Erica Courdae (she/her) asked themselves what community, collaborative relationships, and what leaving room for evolution meant to them, and how that would impact how they facilitate a community.
That eventually led them to realize that they didn’t want to have a hierarchy within the group and didn’t want the dynamic to be “the owners of something or the founders of something is who you seek and then everyone else is an added bonus. It’s like no, but we’re all the thing actually.”
And if the whole of the community is “the thing,” how does that impact how events and workshops are facilitated if the community isn’t relying strictly on India or Erica to take on a hierarchical leadership role?
Erica says that a culture of mutual support has blossomed in the community. “We witness the members show up and share with one another, how they’re so giving with their resources, how they are so supportive of one another. And there’s this understanding that we’re all doing this together…I hope that it continues to be something that we can all carry out into the world and inspire others to amplify that.”
India says that if a core belief of the community is that everyone has something special and valuable to offer, then members need to have opportunities to offer that up on a consistent basis. In The Community, one way that’s taken shape is in the form of the Collaboration Speed Dating events that highlight unique things about the participants, from their experiences to what they’re currently fired up about.
“It’s this collaborative environment where you have other people who may want to have you talk about that with their community or explore that on their podcast, and it’s truly redefining how we go into conversation with people, how we explore publicity and visibility and all of these very businessy, marketing kind of things and saying…let’s humanize it.”
Erica says that Collaboration Speed Dating transcends the old-school networking event by bringing humor and fun and connection on a much more human level to the event, which is why they will be a regular thing in The Community going forward.
None of Us Go It Alone
When attempting to define interdependence, Erica notes that autocorrect wants to default to independence, so she begins there, defining independence as “freedom from the control or influence of others.”
Independence isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but in the US, we have a dominant culture of hyper-independence, of “I don’t need anyone. I did this all on my own. I don’t need help.”
Whereas interdependence is defined as “the dependence of two or more people or things on each other.” And Erica says the first example of interdependence the definition gives is the dependence of people on nature for survival.
She says that example itself exposes the lie of hyper-independence. “You’re self-made, great. Who hunted your food? Who foraged and gathered for it? Who got your AC working today? Who got your electricity working? Who fixed your car?...There’s this lie that we are not dependent upon one another for the basics of our survival and we absolutely are.”
Much of that interdependence has become invisible to many of us, and is related to our level of privilege, because we buy or order the end product of other people’s labor.
“We have this immediacy that is constantly able to be satisfied because we can just order things. We can just go buy things. We can just go pick them up…The word ‘just’ undermines the importance [of], or oversimplifies, the task.”
Erica continues that interdependence is often ignored in our society, and its visibility in our lives has been steadily chipped away at over time as we have moved away from services like milk or ice delivery, or further back, when people’s roles in their community were defined by what skills they had like sewing, weaving, hunting, foraging, farming, healing, etc.
“All of these things have been outsourced, and so we’ve distanced ourselves from the reverence and the gratitude for what we take for granted. And we forgot that this was a part of our communities. We supported one another in doing this. You ain’t do that shit by yourself. That’s not how this works. None of this works that way. Humans are not built to be independent.”
Erica jokes that when the zombie apocalypse comes, we are going to have to work together to rebuild communities that reflect where we came from.
In the present, on a smaller scale, The Community holds “ideals based on this interdependence of knowing that in life, in business, personal, professional, all of these things are not built on us being here on our own. We are supporting one another.”
And if you’re able to understand that, it’s easier to respect and value those that you help, and to have gratitude for the resources that you utilize and that you have access to through others.
“American exceptionalism is a lie.”
Interdependence Is Reciprocal and Mutually Beneficial
India says she’s reminded of an Instagram video where it talked about playing Devil’s advocate, and that if you’re going to advocate for the Devil, you have to be able to name the Devil you’re advocating for.
She mentions that because when talking about interdependence, one objection may be about interdependence tipping into codependence. Which India says is a legitimate concern, but that in her mind, interdependent relationships are differentiated from codependence by being reciprocal and mutually beneficial.
Erica adds a couple of definitions for codependency. “Codependency is an emotional and behavioral condition that affects an individual's ability to have a healthy, mutually satisfying relationship…In sociology, codependency is a theory that attempts to explain imbalanced relationships where one person enables another person's self-destructive behavior.”
Erica says that “if we think about where community came from, the interdependence that was baked in at that point was about the resources being there to sustain the whole…So you don’t have to worry come, quote unquote, dinner time tonight, am I going to eat? If there is food, we will all eat.”
India adds that the principle of “everybody eats” was a common one for her in her family and community of origin. “And that phrase goes beyond just the food of nourishment, but also like the food of influence, the food of impact, the food of opportunity. The food of network and access and privilege and being willing and able to share that.”
Erica says there is also a responsibility to share in interdependent relationships if you have knowledge of or access to a resource that would be beneficial to another member of your community. “I don’t gain anything from hoarding resources and opportunities. I want you to have what you need to live your best life.”
India says she’s so grateful for the community they’ve built and “the decision to make our own table that didn’t say there’s one way to live, there’s one way to love, there’s one way to earn, there’s one way to collaborate with people. There’s a multitude of ways and we bring all of this together with all of these different humans and brands and everyone is sharing and helping each other thrive.”
Erica pauses for a moment to acknowledge that not everyone feels that they have the ability to thrive, but “it’s your birthright to be able to have that.”
When people feel that they can’t access thriving, she says, it is because there are others who have taken it in excess, which impacts the whole.
“Part of what is happening with this in interdependence, in the way that we are addressing it, is to acknowledge, hey, if I’ve received goodness, I want to spread that around…And it’s not just about sharing it in the way that you want,” but about responding to others’ needs.
She continues, “I can do what I can in my little corner of the world, and I can do what I can to show and model that there’s a different way to do this…so that I can give them things that they can consider for themselves when it is then their time to be a part of the concept of interdependence.”
Fostering Equity and Inclusion
A culture of interdependence also fosters the inclusion and equity pieces of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
Erica says, “That sharing is helping to address the fact that there’s a disparity that we don’t want to exist at all, but we definitely don’t want it to exist the same way tomorrow as it does today. And so here’s my act of equity in hopes that it will address what I can address in this moment, even in a small way.”
India says that while equity and inclusion are big, layered, nuanced concepts, sometimes the equity piece, and sharing what you have access to with others, can be simpler than we make it out to be.
She says she’s reminded of a conversation they had with Racheal Cook a while ago that was about sharing your network, “and how that piece of access, that piece of equity, that piece of implied trust and credibility can be major, and yet, it’s literally as simple, in some ways, as introducing two people together.”
Erica agrees that it can really be that simple as a starting point, but does caution that everyone should have the choice to consent to being connected.
She adds, “One of the beautiful things that India and I are able to do, is usually once or twice a year…we are able to plot out where things are right now, the connections, things that we've recently done, and most of them we can trace back to where they originated. And it is a humbling and beautiful thing to do because it proves the validity and the necessity of powerful and intentional relationship building.”
Interdependence in Your Neighborhood
India says that one of the ways that interdependence has shown up in her personal life was as part of her recent purchase of a home and then moving.
She used OfferUp to source free or bartered packing boxes, and ended up not having to buy any new boxes, and when she was done with them, she was able to pass them on to Erica. And Erica is now using some of those boxes to corral her recycling and will use others to line raised planters in the spring.
India says she’s even discovered a way to reduce food waste going into the landfill without having to manage her own compost. Through ShareWaste, she can sign up to give her food scraps to someone local to her who is composting or otherwise using the scraps. She’s actually even become a host for ShareWaste, because she’s opted into her county’s composting program that picks it up from her house.
“Things have a way of coming full circle, and there’s just so many other ways that we can collaborate with one another, where we can depend on one another in a reciprocal way that I just think many people don’t know about.”
Erica agrees and says “there’s all of these things that pop up, many of which, for the sake of ease, do have apps that really can make a difference, not just in our day to day lives, but in our world around us today and in the future.”
India mentions that she also recently discovered another app called Too Good to Go that aims to change how restaurants handle their food waste and keep edible leftovers out of the trash by offering a discount to customers on a surprise bag of food that otherwise would have gone to waste.
Erica says there are so many things in our daily lives that we can dig deeper into what interdependence means, and also to bring more ease into our lives at the same time.
“How it can provide awareness of what we have access to, and how that access can be even more beneficial than what we thought it could be, and that we can make sure that the people around us, that we all get to eat.”
Erica says starting to build a culture of interdependence can be as simple as thinking of one person you can connect with someone else, one app or website you can share, “something that you can share with someone else that would be beneficial just because.
Ready to dive deeper?
The Pause on the Play® Community is creating an environment where interdependence is fostered willingly and joyfully through community conversation, workshops, Q&As, co-working sessions, resources, and events like Collaboration Speed Dating. Our members thrive through sharing with and supporting one another on their personal and professional journeys, where their experiences and perspectives are valued, and where no one is reduced to an elevator pitch.
Learn more at: pauseontheplay.com/community