67. An Interview with Ally + Community Member Kelli Manzano
In this episode of Pause On the Play, host Erica Courdae sits down with POTP Community member Kelli Manzano to discuss allyship and what imperfect action looks like for her.
Erica and Kelli discuss
the importance of mental healthcare with everything going on this year, and how it’s not being prioritized;
the way the media has returned to the status quo, and how they find it frustrating and disturbing;
the importance of maintaining forward momentum in your allyship, because movements do not take vacations;
safe policing of the mentally ill populations and BIPOC populations, and whether police are adequately trained in these areas;
the importance of remembering and maintaining the humanity of those you’re professing to be an ally to, instead of compartmentalizing their identities;
…and much more!
Kelli is a licensed clinical social worker who does a great deal of work with the LGBTQIA community. You can get in touch with her at Summit HealthWorks.
Are you ready to listen in? Here’s what’s happening in this episode:
[02:40] Kelli Manzano is a LCSW who serves the LGBTQIA community and is an active ally for BIPOC.
[05:35] There is so much going on in the world this year, and mental health care is so important right now, but it’s not prioritized like it should be.
[06:14] Much of the media has gone back to the status quo – as in, no longer covering the protests as much – which is disturbing.
[09:18] Some people are unsure what actions to take now as allies, and some have just stopped paying attention or trying. But the movement does not take a vacation.
{11:33] It’s important to have somewhere to channel the energy that arrises when we are angry. One way to do that is through taking action and figuring out how to use your skills and your voice.
[15:10] Kelli channeled her anger and energy into using her skills and expertise to look into the policing methods and training in her local area. She found that the training they receive about mental health in the population and BIPOC is minimal.
[19:30] Don’t presume to know what people need from you. Ask questions and be open to their responses and go from there.
[23:20] Even with your best effort, things might not change. But at least you put your mind to work and your body in action and tried to make a difference to bring about structural change.
[25:29] Go in understanding that this requires playing the long game. You’re going to have to pass the baton to someone else at some point. But start anyway.
[28:27] Active listening is as important as action.
[30:05] Humanizing the people who are being policed leads to less prejudice, which leads to fewer of these tragedies.
[34:34] The compartmentalization of people loses touch with their humanity. Accept them as whole human beings.
[40:10] Supporting organizations like the NAACP is another way allies can show up and stand up for change.
[43:05] Is it less dangerous for a white ally to speak up and stand up for change and equity than for a BIPOC to speak up.
WHAT’S ONE ACTION YOU CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE DISCUSSION?
Just start reach out to the people that you feel are being connected, ask them what they need, what do they need from you to show up and be an ally? And ask questions, look a little bit deeper. See what matches your skillset. Fortunately, what's happening now just so happens to match this skill set that me and my colleagues were trained in. I know that's not always the case. But if you're an artist, make protest art. If you're a carpenter, build something, a platform for people to stand on so they can talk about their change point. So use your strengths and talents to amplify the message. – Kelli Manzano
QUOTES
“I've taken a step back from being a consumer of media and just doing the damn thing, like just trying to find a place to dig in and just do some work. Because that's how I manage that sense of powerlessness or manage that sense of wrongness and unfairness and cruelty, is to get in there and show some love and show some service and show some gratitude.” – Kelli Manzano
“I think people are reckoning with that reconciliation of what's next. But there is this question of, okay, what is happening? What's going on? Because the movement does not take a vacation. You know, we all have to take care of ourselves. So I'm not saying that you can't take a vacation, but the need for action doesn't take a vacation. ” – Erica Courdae
“Just start reach out to the people that you feel are being connected, ask them what they need, what do they need from you to show up and be an ally? And ask questions, look a little bit deeper. See what matches your skillset. Fortunately, what's happening now just so happens to match this skill set that me and my colleagues were trained in. I know that's not always the case. But if you're an artist, make protest art. If you're a carpenter, build something, a platform for people to stand on so they can talk about their change point. So use your strengths and talents to amplify the message.’” – Kelli Manzano
“Because I truly believe that activism wears a lot of hats. It has many faces. And it's not about only this one way. Supporting change does not have to go in this one specific route, other than anti-racism. That's the only must that is there for the ride. “ – Erica Courdae
“Whenever you have an opportunity to humanize the people that you're policing, you're going to have less instances of the types of prejudice that lead to these tragedies happening. ” – Kelli Manzano
“It's not about the quantification of numbers. These are individuals. These are people. These are people that have thoughts and feelings and emotions and families of origins and histories and their own things that they're navigating. And so when you distill it down to just the actions, and you're not actually acknowledging what has gotten them to this point, what are the learned experiences that have conditioned them to feel the way that they feel and to perceive things that we did they do? See people as humans, and be aware of what perceptions are, even if you don't subscribe to them. Even if you don't think that the dark man running is a threat, then you still have to acknowledge that the world as a whole, and this is a blanket statement, but there's gonna be a lot of people that do.” – Erica Courdae
“I'm very much of the belief that, if it didn't come through with what I've already shared, that if one of us doesn't feel safe, then all of us aren't safe. For me, it might be a sense of safety as a white person. But that pales in comparison to actual threats of safety, emotional safety, physical safety, totally different things. We can't even start to talk about emotional safety until we've been able to grant a reasonable amount of physical safety for everyone.” – Kelli Manzano
“You don't have to belong to a group to stand for equity. That's a whole statement, hard stop. If you believe in the equity of, the support of, the expansion of human rights, and basic safety, security and access as the bottom rung of what you should have as a given, you don't have to belong to a group to support that. “ – Erica Courdae
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Transcript
Erica Courdae (00:11): Hello, hello and welcome back to Pause On the Play. As always, it is amazing to see you here where you're challenged to examine your beliefs, question your predisposed notions and consider realities you may have been unfamiliar with in order to understand that they, too, are real. I am your host and conversation emcee for the day, Erica Courdae, here to get the dialogue going. So I haven't had any episodes by myself for a while because I don't like talking to myself. I do very well with conversation. And so you hear a lot with India and I, but I like to be able to have guests sometimes so that you can get some additional pieces of dialogue and you're able to kind of get some context because I think that the conversation piece is extremely necessary for reconsidering your normal and stepping out of your bubble.
And so I have brought somebody that I hold in very high regard. And this woman – first of all, she does amazing things and I love what she does, because of my particular allyship which I've talked about, for the LGBTQ community. She partially serves that demographic but also, the space that she holds for being of support is a powerful thing. And so I am going to introduce you to Kelli Manzano and I'm gonna start by letting Kelli tell you about who she is. Hello, ma'am.
Kelli Manzano (01:39): Hello. Hi, Erica, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It is always a pleasure and privilege to have good conversation with someone who can hold space for people like me to talk about, you know what it means to show up and be an imperfect ally. We met through India, and have had great conversations both in and out of the Pause On the Play Community, and just wherever you find cool boss ladies trying to do their best work in the world.
Erica Courdae (02:16): Pretty much, pretty much. So tell everybody a little bit about what you do. And the beautiful thing is, you talked about the allyship piece. And I think your allyship actually shows up in a number of ways, not only how you kind of navigate things professionally, but even personally, like you really do show up powerfully in that way. So share a little bit about that.
Kelli Manzano (02:40): Oh, thank you. Well, I'm a licensed clinical social worker in West Virginia. And so my primary practice is doing therapy with individuals. And I also teach at my alma mater and do some training for local health organizations. So that's important to me, too. But what seems to what came up for me pretty quickly going into private practice was a large subsection of young adults and teens will come into the office talking about identifying as trans or questioning their gender. And it had always been an interest area of mine.
So if I saw a news article or a quick training – because there weren't very many in-depth trainings about this topic offered in my area – I would take it and be really interested but I wouldn't really have much use for it in my former practice. And so being able to actually use those skills and approach this population with curiosity and openness, it just really opened up a whole new perspective for me and one that I really enjoy working with and I hope I can really show up fully and serve.
Erica Courdae (04:02): Amazing. The interesting thing is right right now, you know at the time of recording, we're all still in the middle of this shit show called COVID-19. And sadly it looks like we are on a fast track to being locked down again at the rate things are going. And the interesting thing that I think is getting swallowed up in what's happening is the fact that the movement and the things that people are still having to navigate in life, whether it's their own personal movement or just the collective movement that we're seeing, not just Black Lives Matters, not just Black Trans Lives Matters, but just as a whole, seeing our own modern-day civil rights movement in some ways – and that is not meant to minimize that, but to say that this is looking strangely familiar to how we saw that play out and you know what we know about it, and those things didn't stop.
They're not put on hold, you know the murder of George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks, Nina Pop, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery. These things that are sparking social outrage that we're watching play out in front of us – none of these things stopped when COVID decided to come and just like squat in everybody's living room. So I think it's important to acknowledge the necessity for mental health right now being that I don't know that everyone is prioritizing it.
Kelli Manzano (05:49): Hmm. Agreed. Yeah, I just get this sense that things, generally speaking, in the most general terms – and I'm absolutely an imperfect ally when I show up for this conversation – but it seems like a lot of things online have gone back to status quo, or some things in the media have gone back to status quo. And that is deeply disturbing to me.
Erica Courdae (06:21): Tell me a little bit more. Let's talk. Let's dig into that some.
Kelli Manzano (06:28): Part of this is might be just my personal perception in that I've taken a step back from being a consumer of media and just doing the damn thing, like just trying to find a place to dig in and just do some work. Because that's how I manage that sense of powerlessness or manage that sense of wrongness and unfairness and cruelty, is to get in there and show some love and show some service and show some gratitude. And so maybe I'm seeing less because I'm intentionally turning those things off, like the unhealthy media streams. But I've noticed that even in some of the communities that I'm in online, having really open conversations with clients, things have kind of quieted for me. And like I said, for me that quiet is very uneasy. It's very deceptive, and it just feels a little ominous, like a big dark cloud. Or a little malicious. Do you get that sense as well?
Erica Courdae (07:33): So the interesting thing is – I've noticed a few things. And what I've seen partially is that there's still a lot of people that want to do their work because they simply want to be better. And for that, I am grateful for those that are listening, learning and being an action. That's, you know, the most that I can ever ask of anybody that is simply trying to make an impact and be better. And at the same time, the challenge – like when George Floyd was murdered, we saw and felt this very palpable pulse just shoot through the roof.
And the scary part of that, I can say for myself as a black person, I'm not going to speak for every black person, but in a lot of conversations that I've had with other people that look like me, there is this piece of like, okay, you're upset now? And then what? What happens when that goes away? Or you know, the outrage isn't quite so loud. And so what I'm wondering right now is if the outrage is possibly quieting, if this is the normal, it's the middle of the summer and people are trying to figure out, I don't know what the hell vacation is this year, but whatever that is. If it is the stress of, what is school going to look like in the fall? I'm not sure what's what, and so it is a little bit challenging to figure out.
Are people just kind of going back? Are people not sure what to do? I do think there's a little bit of paralysis of not knowing what to do. And I have definitely been getting some of these kinds of messages of almost confusion of, I don't know what to do. I don't want to be callous, and just go about selling my business like normal, and I can't live like I did the week of amplification and just constantly pushing black voices only. And so I think people are reckoning with that reconciliation of what's next. But there is this question of, okay, what is happening? What's going on? Because the movement does not take a vacation. You know, we all have to take care of ourselves. So I'm not saying that you can't take a vacation, but the need for action doesn't take a vacation.
Kelli Manzano (10:08): Definitely. That's a powerful statement. And I think what you said about knowing that there's a restlessness. It's like, people are spinning out a little bit. We have this fear response or anger response. And if we have nowhere to put that energy, we just kind of spin out like wheels on a car. And if we don't have a focus for that energy, you're right, it can either kind of go destructive, or the energy just seeps out of it. So yeah, I've seen people just kind of – this is external perception, right? I see, either it just left their perception, whether that was intentional or not, or feel like well, I gave voice to my opinion. And that's enough, I've said my piece about it.
And none of those are sustainable action and none of those continue to make progress in the future. But I noticed when I get good and pissed off, I've got to put that energy somewhere, or else that can get really ugly for me. I don't like sitting with that. It's really uncomfortable for me as a person. So I try to go to, okay, what can I do about it? What are my circles of influence? There are so many things that I can't change or can't solve, but where can I put the energy that I do have? How can I utilize the resources that are at my disposal? How can I reach through my network, whether it's my local community or online, and try to get some motion towards something sustainable, some action. Because if I don't do that, then I don't feel like I've done enough.
And I know I've spoken in the community a little bit about, I wasn't even comfortable saying my response to the murders and to this destruction in the Black community until I was settled in what I wanted to do about it. Then I felt like I found my voice. So that's kind of what my initial thoughts are about what you shared.
Erica Courdae (12:32): You mentioned something really important there that I find comes up a lot. And it's this feeling of, I don't know how to fix it. I don't know what to do. And some of it is from a place of, it's too big. It's unapproachable. I feel kind of helpless with it. I think all of those are sentiments that are relative, and they're there. But I think you mentioned something important: what can I do where I am? My circles of influence. Those that I know. What I have access to.
And I think for a lot of people, it's so easy to get stuck in the, I can't do all the things so I can't do any of the things. And that's not helpful. That's essentially the type of defeatist mindset that perpetuates this continuing generation after generation after generation. And so I feel like there's a number of things that I hear you doing, that are about action. So if you could, from your point of view, point out some of the actions that you think can be taken or are helpful, as well as what you're doing because I think that there's power in the representation of what it can look like, and the modeling of what you can do versus, oh, there's no way that I can or I'm incapable or I'm unequipped, fill in the blank, of a reason here to be still.
Kelli Manzano (13:59): Right. Yeah. I think it's important point to note that I identify as a white person, I do have some time ties to the Hispanic community, and I can talk about that later. So it's white with a little flavor. But I don't have direct ties to the Black community, whether that's locally or no family members or people in my immediate circle. So it was interesting to be in that place and to be in an area where – I think the national average of people that identify as Black is 14%, probably in our area, it's closer to about 9%. So lower than national average. So it's interesting to be a white person and go that I want to do something about this.
And I know from my social work education, whenever there's a movement and you're not a member of the movement per se, but you seek to support social change, then you show up, you do the work and you shut up. In a nutshell that's what we're called to do. So I was looking for opportunities to do that. Where can I lend my experience, knowledge and expertise to support the people who are being directly affected, or to give them access to resources and tools that they need to advocate for themselves or to be able to reach you what they need. And so, for me that look like branching with another social work colleague who feels very strongly about this too, and trying to see where some of our state's breakdowns in policing are.
And of course, we're social workers who were trained in community organization and interventions that promote social change, but we know nothing about policing. I did a little bit of work in criminal justice as a social worker. So I know how to show up to court and talk to police officers and things like that. But that this is very different. So I thought, okay, well, this is what I know, what can I do? And so he and I reviewed the public information available for West Virginia's state policing, and their standards for training. And we learned that the education standards seemed low.
And like I said, this is an outsider judging, when I don't have all the information, but this is what getting in and doing the work looks like. You don't know what the heck you're doing when you start. You've got to get in there and uncover some pieces and learn some things. So our initial observation was, there's a little blurb about policing with minority populations. That's what it's called. And there's a little blurb about policing for mental health in our community. A man was murdered. And he was African American. Shot 20-something times. And he was psychotic. He was in the midst of a mental health episode.
So this was on my colleagues' and my radar. And so we were looking at, what does fair policing for people with mental health and addictions look like, because that's part of the conversation. And the one little training that was offered – I think it was four hours total in the whole state policing training curriculum online, which may be different in practice – that one little training was taught by a licensed clinical social worker, which is our credentials. So our crazy way of thinking is, if not now, when? And if not us, then who?
So we're trying to become more involved in the community, connecting with our local NAACP chapter and seeing in the wake of our own community tragedy, what has already happened? Where's communication breaking down with the police? Where is their lack of training? And what can we do to help? So that's been a long answer to a short question of, what have I been doing?
But if I can highlight the bits of what I think anybody can do is, just start reach out to the people that you feel are being connected, ask them what they need, what do they need from you to show up and be an ally? And ask questions, look a little bit deeper. See what matches your skillset. Fortunately, what's happening now just so happens to match this skill set that me and my colleagues were trained in. I know that's not always the case. But if you're an artist, make protest art. If you're a carpenter, build something, a platform for people to stand on so they can talk about their change point. So use your strengths and talents to amplify the message.
Erica Courdae (18:59): First of all, there's a number of things that are happening there. There was action. So, first and foremost, you took the time to consider what it could look like and finding some options and you went to action. And that was reading that was listening, that was having the conversations, that was seeing where your skill set fit the need, and educating yourself. Because where I think some people struggle is they go in and they're like, oh, I know what you need. Wait. No you don't. Stop.
Kelli Manzano (19:36): Yeah, let's just collectively not. For members of the majority, don't go in assuming. Ask questions and be open to the responses. What they might need from – they, the people that are being directly affected in any given social situation, in this case, black people – do they need childcare so that they can protest? Do they need access to legal resources? Which is another thing that came up was, there wasn't enough legal funds to bail out all the people arrested at a local protest.
So me getting on the phone and calling places and asking if they have a means to contribute to legal aid. That's not something I'd ever done before, but I'm capable of picking up a phone and I can figure it out. So the moral of the story is, yeah, you're not going to know. But ask questions, be open to the answers, and problem solve and figure it out as best as you can. That's all anyone can do.
Erica Courdae (20:33): Absolutely. And again, like you laid out what this can look like and you gave specific examples of what it looked like for you. And the beauty of it is that this does not have to be the only way and this is what I try to impress upon people. This is not about take this one prescriptive thing and go do this. This is, what do you have, what can you do? Because I truly believe that activism wears a lot of hats. It has many faces. And it's not about only this one way. Supporting change does not have to go in this one specific route, other than anti-racism. That's the only must that is there for the ride.
But, the way that you actually execute on that isn't about it has to be this or it has to be that. And I think that you're in a uniquely well-suited situation being that, again, mental health, there's not enough of that there. And what was interesting when you were talking about it was that, you're going through and there's this one little blurb, about policing the black community, or there's this one little blurb about mental health. And these are things that are not properly expanded on.
And from what I heard you say, it was just the entire police force in his area has boiled down to this one module given by this one or however many social workers that's supposed to facilitate this entire understanding. And that is severely distilled and severely minimized as compared to what really needs to happen, particularly when you're policing people within a community that you don't reflect and you don't actually reside in.
Kelli Manzano (22:33): Yes, that's what jumped out for my colleague and I, too, is that it just seems grossly insufficient. I know that this is presumptive, there's a lot of pieces that I don't know, I've never been a police officer. I don't know these things. But if it's already a curriculum that welcomes and utilizes licensed social workers to guide those conversations or those trainings, is there a shortage of curriculum? Does curriculum need to be written? Do there need to be more trainers? So, unfortunately, as with any good super sleuthing, the more questions you ask, the more questions come up.
But at least if nothing comes from this, if nothing changes, at least I will have contributed to the body of knowledge that we have about it to the interventions that have been tried. At least I've given my voice and lent my support to local community members that are interfacing with the police and trying to bring about that structural change. So, I don't have any grand ideas for what I can accomplish, but I more or less have the perspective of, why not try? What's the worst that could happen? To just give it my best. Anything short of that is a disservice to the people that I serve and to members of the Black community. How can I look some of my colleagues or some of my clients in the face and say, oh, I believe in Black Lives Matter. I am the type of person that I need to live that or else I don't feel comfortable saying that.
Erica Courdae (24:19): Yes, yes. And I think that, like you said, doing the action is the important thing, because I think so many people are so focused on the outcome to a fault in that if they don't know that it's going to work or when they don't want to do it. And you can't approach it that way. You just can't. And again, if we look at civil rights alone, if the freedom riders said, yeah, if this doesn't work, we're not going to do it. Well, guess what? It just wouldn't have happened.
There's too many pieces of liberation that would not have happened if that initial try was quantified based on whether or not it would succeed. And I think it's too often that people are so focused on that, that they're not even willing to try. And the reality is, is that it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. This is a long thing, and there's going to be some passing of the baton. And there's going to be these points to where you're going to tap out and pass it on to the next person to keep going, but it has to start and it can't be based on, this is going to work. It's going to be, I can't do nothing.
And so this is the current effort, and to continue evolving that. And if we use the Trans community, for the example here, the Black Trans community – any Trans community – has this cognitive dissonance that can come up, which is a large part of why mental health is needed there. But Stonewall would not have happened if someone had not said, Yeah, I'm not doing this, and decided to utilize that voice and to not go softly. And so, you know, the Trans community does not have the space that it has now, where Black Trans Lives Matters is being centered in a way that it should have been long ago, but that would not have happened had not other things happened previously to set the stage for it. And so I think that it's very necessary to acknowledge that the things that we are seeing are based on groundwork having been laid brick by brick by brick.
Kelli Manzano (26:59): Absolutely. Yeah, I really appreciate it. As an outsider, I really appreciated the twist that Pride had this year, really focusing in on BIPOC people and their contribution to LGBTQ rights. It was very helpful, like I said, as an outsider, as a cis person, as a heteronormative person, to be made more aware of these stories. These stories are powerful. And it's so unfortunate that tragedies happen before majority people give it the time and attention that it truly deserves.
Erica Courdae (27:49): Agree. Again, the fact that you really are an example of what allyship looks like. Because again, allyship is about action. It's not a static word. And we've talked about what this is for you. And the strong part that always stands out for me when it comes to you and allyship is the fact that it's absolutely not based in the the semantics of, I want the tag and I kind of want this name. Yours is much more about the action and the doing of something in order to continue moving forward. But there's a lot of listening there. And I think for some people, there's not enough of that. There's not enough asking questions and learning outside of what you currently know or currently think or believe about something. And there needs to be more opportunity for that.
Kelli Manzano (28:56): I wish that there were more listening projects in communities. Listening projects are things that cropped up on college campuses that were just basically like a guy sitting in a chair in a public place, or girl, and saying, come sit down with me. Just talk to me about your problems. And very informal, not mental health, but it was just a way of connecting to people meaningfully and hearing each other's stories. And, I wish that there were more listening projects hosted between BIPOC people, specifically Black people right now, because one thing that I noticed in studying up on what makes safe policing – because I've had to get educated on this topic. It was not an area of expertise of mine. So the more that I look it up, the more studies support, the more interaction between white officers and communities of color, the more safe policing practices get.
Whenever you have an opportunity to humanize the people that you're policing, you're going to have less instances of the types of prejudice that lead to these tragedies happening. So it's something as basic as having a block party, or, I've seen some places roll out, have coffee with an officer, which is interesting. I don't know how successful that is. Nine years of my career was spent with mandated mental health for folks that had criminal records. So I'm just trying to think of any one of my clients that were on probation or parole that would volunteer to have coffee with that officer. I'm thinking not.
There's a playground that is down the hill, in my neighborhood, and it is well known that it's so crowded, I don't know how anybody can play basketball. But they have this one large basketball court, tons of kids, mostly young men and boys that are out there. And there's almost always one officer playing, in plainclothes, but everybody knows he's an officer, but he's just out there playing basketball. Andevery time I think of person to person interactions, off duty interactions between officers, and the communities they serve, are always going to boost healthier policing practices. And so that's the kind of stuff that I'm after, and I'm asking questions about.
I would love to see that in my own community, because one day my kiddos are going to grow up. They're not black, but they will be white and Hispanic. And people are going to have assumptions about them based on their color, their age. And I would want them to be policed by somebody who respects them and is willing to keep them safe. That's the only type of personal – if I could even say that – connection that I feel towards the Black community is, hearing an African American mother and about "the talk." And I heard about this concept in college of "the talk." And I say concept because I'm white. And I'm privileged and I didn't experience that growing up. And I heard about it in a college classroom of all places, and it just absolutely broke my heart.
And I remember thinking, waiting for my son to grow to see how brown he was going to be to see when I should have "the talk" with him. And that is such a privileged place to come from. And speaking to you as a mother, how can I have an open and honest conversation with you, without respecting your humanity to parent and mother without those same fears? My husband's very dark and I have fears about him running. He's an avid runner. And we live by a city park. So it's a middle class neighborhood, just average houses. But a lot of people like to walk in run up and down. There's a lot of retirees. And every time he goes jogging he wants to do it about when the sun goes down when it's not so hot.
And I've had a couple conversations with him like, you are an imposing dark brown man. I have concerns about you doing this and your safety, not other people's safety because they are going to perceive you as a threat. And I hate to have that conversation openly and honestly with you, but it's true. And I don't want that for you. So when I think of these situations and where is my personal investment for making the world a better place and looking at it a little bit differently, safe policing for all, these are my brief glimmers of personal connection that I look to when I think about it in way too academic or way too clinical terms. No, this is a person to person issue. So I know I've shared a lot and probably a lot imperfectly.
Erica Courdae (34:23): See, here's the thing you talked about the humanization of it. The people as people. Because I think that there's this place where if the compartmentalization of people as a cause is what has you doing this, then you're losing something. And so it's important to see people as people and so, when we talk in Pause On the Play Community, we – and granted, this is me as one of one of the two facilitators – but we really try to humanize things. We try to not make it, like I said in the beginning, just intellectualized to a fault. Or so, just do this or just do that. You have to humanize the thing. It's not, how do I create diversity? Or how am I being more inclusive? Insert statement here.
It's not about the quantification of numbers. These are individuals. These are people. These are people that have thoughts and feelings and emotions and families of origins and histories and their own things that they're navigating. And so when you distill it down to just the actions, and you're not actually acknowledging what has gotten them to this point, what are the learned experiences that have conditioned them to feel the way that they feel and to perceive things that we did they do? See people as humans, and be aware of what perceptions are, even if you don't subscribe to them. Even if you don't think that the dark man running is a threat, then you still have to acknowledge that the world as a whole, and this is a blanket statement, but there's gonna be a lot of people that do.
When it became we have to wear masks and a lot of black men were like, so now you want to make me farther look like a target? And for some people, they had a hard time understanding it, but you don't know what it looks like, what it feels like to live, and already feel like a walking crime. Before you've even done anything. And so, I think that there's a lot of things there to be able to do better by starting with the humanization. I think the humanization is such an important part of any support because you can't support someone if you don't first see them as human. There are some people that do a better job at supporting animal rights than they do human rights.
Kelli Manzano (37:12): Somebody tweet that. Somebody tweet that, please. That would make me happy.
Erica Courdae (37:20): Because honestly, and I am a serious dog lover, but I swear when it was the fuckery of Amy Cooper in Central Park against Christian Cooper, yeah, she should not have been choking her dog. However comma, there's a whole black man that she's trying to get killed in this park. What did you see first? And what did you continue to see? I think both matter but there is no dog ownership if there's no person to own the dog. People, people. Hold on. There's this place where sadly there are people that can easier quantify animal rights than they can human rights, because they're not understanding what human rights actually means. And they think that it's this bigger scarier thing than what it is or somehow is taking something away from them. No, it is you no longer deciding that an entire group of people are three-fifths of a human each.
Kelli Manzano (38:28): It's just incredible. Our history is mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing. I'm very much of the belief that, if it didn't come through with what I've already shared, that if one of us doesn't feel safe, then all of us aren't safe. For me, it might be a sense of safety as a white person. But that pales in comparison to actual threats of safety, emotional safety, physical safety, totally different things. We can't even start to talk about emotional safety until we've been able to grant a reasonable amount of physical safety for everyone.
So if anybody questions me, like I shared with you before we started recording today was hoping to attend my first NAACP meeting. For some reason, I had this weird fantasy in my mind that somebody was going to ask me why I was there as a white person. That they would be like, why is this white girl here? Because being the white girl in Hispanic family, I am not a stranger to sticking out like a strange thumb and going, yes, I happen to be the one white girl in a group of people that look different than me. But my immediate response to that would be well, you know, if you're not safe, then we're not safe. We all have to be safe here.
Yeah, and speaking of – public service announcement – white people can join the NAACP. I say this because and I know that in a season of ignorance, I know that not everybody agrees with the NAACP. I'm learning a little bit about that organization's history, too. But regardless, I told three people who were also white, that I was joining, and I'm not kidding, the first thing that they said to me back was, can you do that? Three people. I don't know if that just speaks to the people that I interact with. Or with the general ignorance. I don't know if that's a thing, but if it is, let it end here now. Anyone can join as long as you identify with those principles. Is that a thing? Have you heard that before people saying, can other types of people join, not just Black people?
Erica Courdae (41:08): I think people as a whole just feel like, I can't join what I don't identify with. And if there is nothing that has ever blown a hole in it, if you look at all of the protests that are currently happening, and newsflash that are still happening. Just FYI. I think, when you're watching this, you're seeing that the majority of the people that are protesting aren't even Black, which is powerful and what needs to happen. And so, this is to remind you that you don't have to belong to a group to stand for equity. That's a whole statement, hard stop.
If you believe in the equity of, the support of, the expansion of human rights, and basic safety, security and access as the bottom rung of what you should have as a given, you don't have to belong to a group to support that. If anything it is more powerful to not belong to that group. Because there's sadly this place of, oh, I belong to this group, so you don't really hear me in the same way. When someone that doesn't belong to that group speaks up, it's like wait, this doesn't even affect them. And they said something, maybe we should listen.
Kelli Manzano (42:37): I hate to keep circling back around to safe policing, but it's just so on the forefront of my mind. And I'm centering my learning right now, for obvious reasons. But that's the second thing that jumped out at me when reviewing the research and listening to lectures about safe policing, is that number one, those positive interactions in the community, and between police and community members, and two, when members of the majority speak out against racism on behalf of the minority, that it's more powerful for that reason. And because the repercussions are most often less. So they're more likely to be social repercussions if a member of the majority speaks out versus financial repercussions or physical safety repercussions of somebody of color speaking up.
So that's another thing that pushed me in that direction towards joining and towards feeling a little bit more okay being a white person without direct links, but when I mean or familial links, and saying, yeah, I want to do this, this is really important to me and to my humanity, to do something about this right now, whatever I can do.
Erica Courdae (44:05): And so as we begin to wrap up, if there was anything that you could share with anyone listening, if there was anything that you could support them with – an action, a thought, or something to really contemplate, to moving forward with – is there anything that you could give as an imperfect ally to another imperfect ally? What would you share with them?
Kelli Manzano (44:33): I think the most powerful part for me was finding how I could put my experience, strengths, and talents to use for this purpose. I really feel like my voice followed once I found where I might be able to contribute and help. So up until then, it was a lot of fear and anxiety and grief and just a lot of really ugly heartbreak and not really any place to put it. So if you're feeling heartbroken, you feel called to do something, but haven't really found how, I want you to look towards your own skills, talents, your own networks, your own sense of community online or off, and see about how you can put those things to good use for this purpose. And the fear will lessen. Your purpose will increase. And you will have found a place where you can start to be a part of the solution.
Like you said, this is for the long haul. You're going to be passing this baton to somebody else. You're not going to see the end of it, but you've got to start. And so if you're wondering about where, look to what you already do well, what people they respect about you, where you already feel competent and confident. Start there.
Erica Courdae (46:00): Absolutely, I agree 150% on that one. And so just to remind people, if you are looking for something else to do or you're looking to not do this on your own, Pause On the Play: The Community is going to give you a room of like-minded individuals – not a remote Stepford people, we're not all the same. So, there's enough uniqueness there that everybody isn't going to approach things the same, the skill set is not the same. And just the things that people are processing, along with their allyship and the desire to really do better and to make impact. That part, being consistent, is there and it is an opportunity for you to work on what it looks like to be in action.
And you know, what are the impacts that this can have on your business and how your business can create additional equity in the small business space? How Is it that what you do has the opportunity to begin to create access and equity in whatever the space is that you inhabit, and how can it collectively make a dent ain the change that needs to happen? And I'm very fortunate for India and I to have Kelli as a member in this room, and her being able to bring her skill set and her point of view is extremely valuable and anybody that wants to see what that can look like, I encourage you to go to pauseontheplay.com/community and apply so that you can really come on into the room and begin to be in action today. If you have anything that you want to give to them, Kelli, being in the room, feel free.
Kelli Manzano (47:50): Well, I'd just love to add that my experience with India, having conversations with you, Erica, seeing you really be the voice we all needed to hear from during this crisis, I know at least in, in the rooms that I visit that are more geared towards creative entrepreneurship, it was just so reassuring to know you personally and to trust you, and to know that you are going to give people the message that they needed to hear with diversity, equity and inclusion. And to give them safe spaces to be able to work out these things. It's just so powerful.
So I wanted to say thank you for that, and all the hard work that you've done throughout this process. And I really appreciate that you and India built a community where I could sound some of these things out. In the process, that was the only space that I felt really comfortable besides the four walls of my house talking through some of the things that I was feeling about what was going on and trying to figure out how I was going to take action. So I really appreciate the firm but flexible support that you both provide. Yeah. And if anybody wants to connect with me or has questions or concerns about mental health and the Black community or mental health in LGBTQ communities, you can find me at summithealthworks.com
Erica Courdae (49:28): Awesome. Thank you so much, Kelli. And thank you again for being a part of community and I'm we're happy to hold that space. And this is just a piece of what we do to contribute to change. And yes, thank you. And yes, you need to go and connect with Kelli. Kelli is amazing. So you do that. And as always, you know, I love being able to have everyone show up here as a guest and as a listener, willing to have these real conversations, normalizing the challenging things, crossing lines, recreating boundaries and showing up to support and not separate. Let's continue doing more getting people dropping the veil, challenging their thoughts, feelings and actions. And until next time, bye.