In episode 63 of the Pause on the Play podcast, Erica and India express their gratitude for the generous donations from listeners and followers, before they jump into the topic of DEI work both at the small business level and within larger industries that are known to be problematic.

They discuss Erica’s recent workshop with The Garment, where she addressed DEI work and allyship to over 600 people in the fashion industry.

The hosts also examine why people look for “one thing” to take action on, and the importance of having multiple actionable items as part of a larger plan of action. They end the episode describing the importance of having a support system of people who are also doing DEI work.

Are you ready to listen in? Here’s what’s happening in this episode:

[00:46] India announces that the Pause on the Play podcast is now transcribed, which is made possible by listeners’ recent generous donations.

[05:19] Erica describes the shift she’s seeing in more people since the murder of George Floyd. She does not expect perfection. A willingness to change and making progress is the goal, not perfection.

[08:20] Erica and India discuss the grace and nuance required for ongoing DEI work.

[15:39] Erica explains how powerful it is for small businesses within any industry – but specifically here, the fashion industry – examining their problematic aspects and choosing to do better. They can change the culture from within.

[17:35] The hosts explain the importance of examining why you’re choosing a certain action over another – donating money, for example. Is it performative? Is because you think it absolves you of everything else? How does it help truly create and sustain change?

[18:14] Your actions need to be part of a larger action plan. There is no “one thing” that absolves you of future responsibility or action.

[23:09] Erica and India discuss the importance of not centering yourself in your DEI allyship, but instead amplifying black and brown voices and brands.

[25:02] There is no “one thing” you can do. There are many things you can do to be an ally, and they are all part of a larger action plan.

[28:00] Feeling stuck or ashamed are common in the beginning of DEI work. The key is to take imperfect action, anyway.

[31:53] Your DEI work will show up in your business, in your leadership, in your marketing. But it also goes much deeper within you individually and shows up in your personal life, such as conversations with your family. So it’s important to have a community of people who are also doing the work where you’re free to discuss those issues without judgment.

WHAT’S ONE ACTION YOU CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE DISCUSSION?

“There's no One [DEI action] Thing for everybody. That's the whole point. Don't get so wrapped up in that, that you missed the point of being in action, and you miss the opportunity to figure out what you need to do to do your work. Don't dilute it that way. That's performative because you're looking for your check-the-block.” – Erica

QUOTES

“I want to echo that same level of appreciation and gratitude, because, for me, this [podcast transcription] is a piece of allyship in action. This is me saying, okay, I want you to be able to have access regardless of where it is that you are approaching the content from. And so for me to be able to have this be something that is consistently happening going forward. I'm extremely, extremely grateful. “ – Erica

“You don't know what you don't know. And I can't expect you to all of a sudden come in and be full-blown Black Panther today, because that's not realistic. So, you're saying that you're ready to make progress and that you are making progress. I can see where you're shifting it. That's the whole goal.” – Erica

“I don't think there's ever been a time since I've known you where it could be more clear that you are not the diversity dominatrix. You definitely give people grace and room to make mistakes in a way that I don't know most people could.” – India

“What I’m seeing sometimes is even when people are meaning well and are trying to do something to facilitate change and being better, their question is rooted in centering themselves, period. Using your friend’s company and how she navigates that and amplifies the voices of black-owned brands is a really great example of how you can be supportive and look at community instead of competition.” – India

“[DEI work and anti-racist work] is not something you want to do by yourself. That’s not something that you want to go into without a support system in case those conversations don’t go the way that we hoped.” – India

“It’s so powerful to have this place that not only can you work through your evolution, but you’re also in there with people that you’re getting a bird’s eye view into what their ethics look like. So you’re now able to support and share business with these people. And you know what it means to vote with your dollars.” – Erica

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Transcript

Erica Courdae  (00:11): Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to Pause On the Play. As always, it is amazing to see you here where you are challenged to examine your beliefs, question your predisposed notions, and consider realities you may have been unfamiliar with in order to understand that they, too, are real. I am your conversation emcee for the day, Erica Courdae, here along with my co-host, India Jackson, ready to get the dialogue going. Hey, Indy. 

India Jackson  (00:36): Hey, I'm glad to be here today. We have some really great news. You want to break it?

Erica Courdae  (00:42): I'll let you do it. So excited!

India Jackson  (00:46): So we want to say thank you from the bottom of our hearts. It's just been so incredible to see some of you come forth and donate to the podcast. And I think it's really important to also have that transparency of like what happens with this money when you donate, right? And so I feel super, super excited about this.

And I know you are too, Erica, because one of the things that have been so important for us to have here on Pause On the Play is transcripts for our show notes. We have some hearing-impaired people in our community, and they will love to be able to read the episodes instead of listening to them. And it costs a lot of money to have the podcast transcribed by a human so things aren't lost in translation.

And we're just so so grateful for your donations to be able to make that possible and to bring this message to people that may not find listening to the episodes the best way for them to consume this content. So thank you.

Erica Courdae  (01:58): Same. I want to echo that same level of appreciation and gratitude, because, for me, this is a piece of allyship in action. This is me saying, okay, I want you to be able to have access regardless of where it is that you are approaching the content from. And so for me to be able to have this be something that is consistently happening going forward. I'm extremely, extremely grateful. And thank you.

India Jackson  (02:27): Oh, life has been interesting. So... [laughter] it's an understatement. And I just really wanted to dive into kind of what's been going on, because all the things have been going on so. So I was wondering if you could walk the listeners through a little bit of like, what's been going on and just your life right now, what things look like. Since this entire craziness that has been the George Floyd fallout?

Erica Courdae  (03:14): Yes, and this is where, you know – say his name! – since George Floyd was senselessly murdered. It really shifted. You know, I didn't even realize it was happening, but it shifted for me how I showed up and required people to step more into action because I had no fucks to give at that moment. Because I just was not okay with being quiet. I was not okay with being soft about it.

And, you know, it really shifted, how I was giving my message, but it also really showed that that needed to happen and the people that were listening, I mean, just the way that it all happened was kind of amazing to me, and so I'm gonna step back for a hot second and say that this also shifted in my life. The conversations that I was having with my family. Sitting this weekend and having a conversation with my son about, you know, the difference in, you know, voting, and you know, what was happening with protests, and what this looked like when it came to equity or lack thereof.

And with those that are the family that I've created through my friends and my cohorts. And, you know, I've had a lot of that and this is where, for me conversation being such an important thing, I've had that personally and it just was being fully reflected professionally for me because I had people that felt comfortable enough – which I'm very grateful for this – to actually have conversations with me to show up in my DMs, in my inboxes.

You know, in all of the workshops and things that I'm giving. Reposting the podcasts and workshops and things that I've been in and saying, "I don't know what I don't know. And I'm realizing that." And, you know, for some people even saying, "I know I want to do better..." sadly on the heels of microaggressions –

India Jackson  (05:14): Hmm, on the heels? I've seen some of them. They were full-blown microaggressions

Erica Courdae  (05:19): I want to call them aggressions. They weren't even micro it's like, oh boy. Yeah, there's been some and they are hard. They're hard to deal with. And I am choosing to not like, blow up these people spot in the sense of, "you messed up!" And I yell at you. No. Because, you know, they're genuinely saying, "I want to do better."

And when the aggression that's not so micro comes up, they don't always know and they they're not aware of it. It's kind of like this dog whistle thing because, you know, if you're not aware of the concept of dog-whistle politics, you don't hear it because it's not meant for you. And so they don't consciously understand that this is what this is.

And if there's a way to be able to actually, you know, be in conversation and communicate that with them – and I even had one time that: "no, I'm gonna take that back." I have had some that were like, "oh, I don't know what you mean." I'm not talking about them, folks. I'm not worried about them. That's a whole nother thing.

But as a general statement to people that are showing up for me, if there is something, and I have a dialogue with you around, it's like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea. I'm really sorry. I'm wanting to do better. You know, people are taking ownership. And that's an important piece of it. So the fact that people are, first of all, reflecting. "I know, I need to do better. Thank you for holding space for me. You know, I never thought about it this way. I appreciate the opportunity to just kind of work through this." And, you know, I'm good with that. Because of the fact that you don't know what you don't know.

And I can't expect you to all of a sudden come in and be full-blown Black Panther today, because that's not realistic. So, you're saying that you're ready to make progress and that you are making progress. Like I can see where you're, you're shifting it. That's the whole goal. That's the goal.

India Jackson  (07:18): Yeah. I think it's been interesting for me to watch from the outside looking in because DEI is not what I do. And you know, my journey and this world has been really interesting from the day that you decided you wanted to do DEI coaching until now.

But to see so many people, you know, wanting to do and be better, and at the same time, that extra layer of like, seeing even when they're giving the compliment to you, there's a microaggression peppered in there that they don't even you know.

They don't know what they don't know. It's really been interesting to watch and so I just want to acknowledge you for navigating that as gracefully as you are. And really holding space for people to make mistakes. And not always, you know, do what sometimes I would want to do, which is like, "the fuck is wrong with you?"

Erica Courdae  (08:20): I mean, if I'm being fully transparent, there are absolutely times in my head that I'm like, "[sigh] the fuck are we doing right now?" That is absolutely a thing. However, I try to catch it before it reaches my mouth and be like, wait, wait. Like they don't, they don't know. And it's me trying to almost, again, kind of like – and I've heard people saying this recently, like, "I'm a toddler in this." And it's like, you're not going to like, be mad at the little kid. Like, "why you ain't standing up straight?" Like, I'm working on this.

And so even though I have times where you know, occasionally, I'm still human and it's just like, man, come on... like, I'm a person and I have feelings. And this is what I do. And this is me stepping into, you know what I do professionally. And that's where I try to have that tolerance and that patience of like, okay, if I can genuinely see that you're working on it. That is a very different place.

But there's also that polar opposite of the people that like, no, you're really not trying. And you just want to say that you are or you just want the accolades. You want the cookies. That's a whole nother piece. And so in my head, I'm still going to keep the, "the fuck are you doing?" Because you don't even want to hear nothing I gotta say. You are just like, "I know what I'm doing. And you don't know my heart." Like let's not do this. We about to go to the church. "Jesus knows my heart." No. Please stop. No.

India Jackson  (09:51): I'll just say being the fly on the wall, many times I have a newfound level of appreciation for the kind of space that you hold. How I know that there's no way you're not holding some things back or in sometimes out of knowing that saying what's really in your mind is not going to be helpful. There's a lot of nuances to what you do. So kudos on that. This is why you're the coach. I'm the consultant.

Erica Courdae  (10:20): I appreciate that. Because you hope that your intent and your impact line up. And I've been very fortunate that that is what is being received. But it's also very clear to me that there are going to be people that aren't going to like what I say all the time. And that's a part of it.

And so professionally, that needs to happen. And in people that are actual clients, like, I'm not here to be a yes man. And so there are going to be times that it might not feel good, but you need to hear it. And I think that that's a part of the evolution. And I think that that is a large part of actually stepping into the fact that I want to be better.

Sometimes you're gonna have to run up against that, refer back to "I don't know what I don't know." And it's like, shit. Yeah, Nike again, don't come get me, Nike. I'm not infringing on nothing. You're gonna eat some Nike. Like, it's a thing.

India Jackson  (11:11): Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's ever been a time since I've known you where it could be more clear that you are not the diversity dominatrix. You definitely give people grace and room to make mistakes in a way that I don't know most people could.

And I know that that has kind of trickled over, not just in how people are referencing you, and, you know, taking on or consuming your content and being grateful for that, or giving you feedback, but it's also showed up in your business life. So could you catch us up to speed on like, what business has been like lately?

Erica Courdae  (11:52): Busy. Very busy. And not busy in a like, "oh! I'm so busy!" type of like faux busy. No. This shit is busy. And there's a lot of, you know, consulting with people that are like, "Okay, this is where I am and you know, what do I need? How can I begin to move forward and have more intentionality?" And there's a lot of, you know, "how do I work through this programming that I've gotten from my family of origin that I don't believe in and I don't want to subconsciously bring this into what I'm doing."

So, you know, what does it look like to begin to actually acknowledge, "Oh, nope, that one right there." Pay attention to that and kind of having that realization of okay, there is more work to be done. And a huge part of it for me has been really having this intersection with people that are like, "I knew you before and I knew I needed to do this, and I didn't, and I can't make excuses for it. But I want to change that."

Or the people that are like, "I didn't know about you before. And I have a level of comfort with you, in which case, I want to move into this and I want to be better, I want to do better." And it's very humbling for people to put that piece of their well being kind of into my hands a little bit and say, you know, "I'm asking for help. I'm asking for support."

And to be able to know that what I'm doing in that capacity is to shift how they move through their life, how they execute things in their business, how this is a reflection of them giving amplification and opportunities to people that can then begin to influence what generational wealth looks like for them and those that they care for.

What does this look like to begin to create equity in industries that don't have enough of it, front-facing or internally, within these businesses. Or even within, you know, industries, like, you know, I did a workshop last week. And that was really beginning to talk about disparities and an entire industry that have been known to be racist and sexist, and misogynistic, and just problematic, at best.

India Jackson  (14:20): All the things.

Erica Courdae  (14:20): Ageist. Yes. And so, it is humbling to have this space of doing something that I love, and I'm very passionate about, and knowing that it has these far-reaching effects that are ripples that will continue with not just about the one person and that's a huge thing. Yeah. It's a lot and it's a beautiful thing. And I wouldn't want to be doing anything else right now because I feel like I'm setting an example for what is possible for those that are trying to work through this.

And I'm setting an example for my kids of what it looks like to own your power and your voice and to use it for good. And for my own well being and that have my family. Because I'm not working for free, like I'm being paid to do it and that feels good as well. So people aren't picking my brain for free. You try it, I'm not gonna let you. You know, I think that that's a part of it because it is a business.

India Jackson  (15:25): Yeah, I'm really curious to know, like, if you feel comfortable diving into that business workshop that you did, that you mentioned a moment ago.

Erica Courdae  (15:39): So it was The Garment that put it on and it was all about allyship, and it was for the fashion industry. And the fashion industry has got a lot of shit with it to be worked on. A lot. And so this workshop – and this is where I kind of had a little bit of a moment at one point where I was like, okay, this is life now. We're gonna normalize this, where there were, there were almost 600 people, and I mean, just shy of 600 people on this webinar. And I was just kind of like, okay, all right, cool. Let's do this.

And to know that this many people put their hand up and said, "I want to be a part of this, and I want to listen and I want to participate." And to say that "I am a maker, you know, a small business within this entire fashion industry and that I want to do something different." To me, that's a huge part of the change, because I don't think the change comes from all of the big brands doing it.

Because then like, I'll say, for me, personally, I've had times where I've said, Yeah, okay, this is what y'all say, but what's actually happening? These small businesses have an opportunity to really do things to different and to serve differently and to support differently. And for them to show up and say, "I want to figure out how being an ally shows up in what I make the way I make it, how do I listen to people? Who am I listening to? Who am I centering? Who do I want to make sure knows that I not only will take your money, but I want to support you."

There's just something really powerful about that because the fashion industry is known to have a whole lot of fuckery with it. I can't easily some – a whole lot.

India Jackson  (17:35): So I came into the workshop towards the end because I was with a client for the first part. But one of the things that really stood out to me is people having questions around like donating part of their proceeds to Black Lives Matter related organizations and really just trying to navigate that fine line between performative action versus a larger goal of almost like paying reparations. Yeah, I'm just wondering, what is your take on that?

Erica Courdae  (18:14): So first of all, anytime I see people that are donating, first of all, why are you donating? Are you donating because that's the thing to do right now? Are you donating because the act of donation keeps you from actually taking any other action within your business? Is it performative? Is it just some surface like, "Look, I gave money, right? Y'all not gonna come for me because I gave money, I'm safe. I'm a good person." Like, that's what I don't want.

I want to make sure that any actions that are being taken – and donating is an action – how does that actually play into the other actions that are taken within the business? How does this play into what else is happening to create a more equitable environment, from the people that you're selling to, to the people that you're working with.

And that's everyone from, you know, supply chains to packaging to your marketing, customer service, there's a number of pieces. And so if this action is a piece of a larger action plan and the execution of it, cool. But let's make sure that this is not a check-the-block thing. Because throwing money at the problem still leaves the problem.

India Jackson  (19:28): Yeah, and so it makes me think about another question that I saw popping up in a lot of different ways. But, when we're now no longer trying to put money on the problem, and we're actually looking at arranging things or doing things differently, I saw a lot of people asking like, in some form or another, "how can I make my stance or my intentions or my ethics more clear front-facing beyond just hiring people of color or whatever. And I have my thoughts about that question, but I'm just wondering where yours are.

Erica Courdae  (20:13): So I want to know your thoughts. And I'm going to say what I think. I'm gonna give an example of a local friend of mine that has a tea brand and there was something that she did that really stood out to me. This is someone that I know and I have a relationship with her. So, therefore, I had a point of reference on it, but her name is Brittany.

She owns Wight Tea in the Baltimore area, and she not only did a post on Instagram – now, full transparency, Instagram does not absolve you from doing other actions, but Instagram is a part of your marketing. So it is not meant to be the only thing, nor is it meant to be left dormant. So I want to acknowledge that. But she put up a post and she made her stance clear.

But then she also named, I want to say it was like 10 or 12, if not 15 other black-owned brands that did tea, coffee, and food in this area. And so she didn't take it as an opportunity of "let me just talk about me." She's like, "wait, let me tell you about the other people that I know that do this, too." And I thought that there was something really powerful in it. Because I know that she's done things with other people along the way.

She's done pop-ups at my salon Silver Immersion. We have two floors. So I've used my studio to do pop-ups before. And so to see someone that is like, "Okay, I need for it to be clear what our stances. And let me also amplify other brands that you may not have known about, some of which I didn't know about." And so I think that there's something powerful in seeing what is the collective whole of what I can do.

And there's a number of things that go into that. And I think where people get in trouble is, they look for one thing. What's the one thing that I can do, and then that's it? Yes, it's good to find one because it gets you in action. But don't think that that one is enough. And once you do that, then what? What's next? Don't stop.

That's where I feel like people are like, "oh, just give me that one thing." I was at another event that I had done. And there was something about at one point, the way it was kind of, "Okay, what can what's the one thing?" And I'm like, "Well, I gave you a number of things."

But there's no one thing that I can give to this whole room. Because if I've talked to a number of people in here, and everybody's at a different place, doing something different, and they all look different, so what I'm gonna refer to this black person that's in this professional space is going to be different than this white person that's in more of like an employee role.

I'm like, wait, they're like stop looking for this check-the-block. Stop looking for me to give you that thing that's gonna absolve you of everything. Please don't do that. And that's where I struggle. I'm like, don't use me that way. Don't use the movement that way. That's not okay.

India Jackson  (23:09): Yeah, and I think you landed on my thoughts but in a more positive light. So we'll roll with that, which is what I'm seeing sometimes is even when people are meaning well and are trying to do something to facilitate change and being better, their question is rooted in centering themselves, period.

And I think using your friend's company and how she navigates that and amplifying the voices of black-owned, you know, tea brands and things is a really great example of how you can be supportive and look at community instead of competition. And also amplify other brands instead of just centering "well my brands doing this." 

Erica Courdae  (23:52): It was it was a lot of that happening, and that foolishness is performative because it is the Me Show. And the problem isn't that you did it. The problem is when you do it, and if somebody addresses it, or you catch them on the wrong moment, and they call you out, what do you do?

 India Jackson  (24:09): Yeah, getting defensive and things like that.

Erica Courdae  (24:13): Because all you did was prove that they were right. Don't – "I didn't do that." You did. And it's not fatal. What can you do to course-correct? Stop worrying about trying to save your little delicate sensibilities and figure out what the fuck you need to do to change it. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox real quick.

India Jackson  (24:38): So the other thing I noticed, correct me if I'm wrong, is I felt like I saw people getting a lot of great "one things" – more than one thing. And yet, looking for the one thing at the end I think might have been an excuse to not do anything. Like just pick one of the things you heard. Like I gave you like 10 things. Just pick one. There you go.

Erica Courdae  (25:02): And I know that there is this part of us that like – and I've done I don't know how many workshops just this past couple of months alone. And I get it, we get to the end, here's your one thing I want to put you in action. Yes, yes, yes. But I have if I had been talking to you for the past 45 minutes, and you still are looking for one thing. You ain't heard nothing I said. Nothing.

India Jackson  (25:23): Yeah, or it might be a defense mechanism to keep you stuck. Either way.

Erica Courdae  (25:28): Exactly. Because yes, there is a place that I can, you know, – there's a "one thing" but at the same time, it's like, there's no one blanket thing. And I think that's where I'm getting really – I'm having a lot of issues right now with that question, because, for example, in the workshop last week with The Garment. I couldn't give one thing to a room with almost 600 brands that were on live, listening. That did not include –

India Jackson  (25:55): Some were textile companies in India. Some were influencers in Canada. Some were, you know, actual, like clothing manufacturers and designers. I mean, they were all over the board in that industry. So you gave a lot of things. Pick one.

Erica Courdae  26:09): Exactly. That's just the people that were live. That's not the people that went back and listened to the replay. And so with that, you can't then say, "Okay, so what's the one thing?" Because there's no one thing for everybody. That's the whole point.

Don't get so wrapped up into that, that you missed the point of being in action, and you miss the opportunity to figure out what you need to do to do your work. Don't dilute it that way. That's performative because you're looking for your check-the-block, that's not the thing.

India Jackson  (26:46): Whenever I'm in a space, you know, especially when I'm with you in a space, I kind of read where people are at. What are they thinking, what are they wondering, what are they feeling?  I think that – well, A) I'm in the marketing industry. So you gotta understand where your people are in order to be able to meet them where they're at.

One of the main things that I noticed is that there's a lot of fear. A lot of fear and feeling like we're not doing enough. A lot of realizing that maybe what we were doing was the wrong thing. Not that there's a right or wrong thing.

But like I noticed, somebody had said something about realizing that when they're hiring a person of color, it can come off and appear like they're fetishizing them, or being a performative ally. I noticed people realizing that maybe they're tokenizing their black friends, you know. People wondering their next thing to do, like, "I've done this, and I know I need to do more, what do I need to do next? Or I don't know where to begin."

And I think that that shows up in that person, you know, after at least 40 minutes in there, like, what's the one thing, you know, feeling stuck, and not really knowing how to apply specifically to them the information they consumed.

Erica Courdae  (28:21): So, I see this come up a lot, and I feel like part of it is, I think that there's some shame in it. "I haven't done it. I didn't know and I have so much that needs to be changed, and so much that I need to unlearn, and oh my gosh, how did I get here? I don't know where to start." And it can feel overwhelming. And it can feel very scary in this way of like, "I've already fucked up this much. I don't want to fuck it up anymore. I don't want to knowingly be that person. I'm seeing what happens. I don't want to do that." And it can be very scary.

But that's also where – there is a point to where I think that it does boil down to, "Okay. So with where I am right now, what can I do differently?" And to be honest, you listening to this podcast right now is one of those things. I don't know what your finances look like and it's not my point to come in and be rifling through your piggy bank in your purse, man purse, whatever.

So, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, this is one thing that you are listening to that is going to begin to give you places to consider, "what have I been doing? What can I do differently? What shifts Can I make?" You know people so generously – as we talked about in the beginning – donated, because it is free for you to listen, it is not free for us to make it. And so they're supporting that. That is an action.

India Jackson  (29:46): First off, if you're interested in donating to the podcast, you can hop over to  pauseontheplay.com and on the first page of the website, you can scroll down and there's an option to support the movement. Okay.

Erica Courdae  (30:00): I love you. Yes. And it's true. Because in order to keep this free, those donations help with that. And so there's that. But the reality is, just like any other part of your business, if you would pay for support, you should pay for this support as well.

And I know for some people, this can be challenging, because this can put you in this place of like, this is scary to do alone. I don't really know if this is just me thinking or feeling this. Or, oh my gosh, does anybody else, struggle with this thing? And, there's something about having those conversations and that dialogue, in a space of being able to say, uh, yeah, I screwed this up. And I don't know how to fix this.

Or, what does this look like when you do this in your marketing? What have you experienced? You know, I didn't know anything about this and then somebody popping in and being like, here's an article, go read about it.

And this is something that happens in Pause On the Play: The Community. So that point of like, I'm overwhelmed, and I don't know what to do. The benefit of coming into the community is that everyone is in there to be able to benefit from the intersection of what India and I do. And that is my DEI work and her marketing efforts.

Because what happens is, your DEI work shows up in your business, in your marketing. And so if you are not consciously owning it, and writing that story for yourself, it will be written for you. And doing that on your own can have you in the echo chamber of your head doing all type of foolishness, and it's and you can get burned out, or just feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to do it, screw it, I'm done. I give up. So being able to do that, with community, there's something really powerful about it.

India Jackson  (31:53): Yeah. And I mean, I think that when you start doing this work, and just from what I've seen happening and the conversations that we're having within our community right now, it's not just your business, it's not just your marketing. That's a lot of what we've talked about here. But it goes so much deeper.

It comes into your conversations with your family, and sometimes those don't always go well. And so I think having access to a room of people that are there to support, that you can come in at any given time and ask for them to listen, or to give you feedback, is so important. Because I think sometimes we start out with a conversation, you know, that we think is going to go one way and it just, it doesn't always go the way that we hoped for. And sometimes we really do need that support.

I've seen people have big conversations with family, you know, big conversations with their kids, their parents, their partners, you know about racism right now. And it's a really charged and emotional subject.

Erica Courdae  (33:01): Yes, very much so.

India Jackson  (33:03): That's not something you want to do by yourself. That's not something that you want to go into without a support system to be there in case those conversations don't go the way that we hoped for.

Erica Courdae  (33:16): And this is why, again, knowing that there is a room of people that are from different industries, different places within their journeys. Different places in their journey, not only professionally, but you know, within DEI.

And it's not about, "Ooh, you don't know that. Why don't you know that? You haven't done that already?" Nope, nope, nope, nope, none of that. It is a space to be able to actually navigate where you are, and being able to have other people around you that you can see, regardless of if they're just starting. They're a little bit you know, more advanced maybe than you – and I don't mean to say it like it's a course but, you know, maybe they've been doing it longer.

But there's this space of like, it doesn't matter where I am. Where I am, is where I am. And that's okay. And I think that there's a lot of power in being allowed to be where you are, knowing that everybody is moving forward. And it's not about leaving any behind or passing anybody. It just is what it is.

India Jackson  (34:17): Absolutely. And, you know, I've seen as a side note from that, that it's also been supportive when you decide that you want to use your voice in a more powerful way and start your podcast. Giving feedback on podcast mics. I've seen, you know, people sharing clients with each other, or people supporting each other's businesses and, you know, purchasing products and services from one another.

So it's support all around. I think that there's a beautiful thing when you have a very close and empathetic community of people there to really have your back.

Erica Courdae (34:54): Agree. And for me, again, it's so powerful to have this place that not only can you kind of work through your evolution, but you're also in there with people that you're getting a bird's eye view into what their ethics look like.

And so, therefore, you're now able to support and share a business with these people. Oh, you do that I have a friend that needs that, oh, wait a minute, but my friend does that too. And but like, it's actually that marketplace aspect because again, we're all business owners, and you're able to do it with intention.

And you have a clear idea of what people stand for, what they stand against. And you know what it means to vote with your dollars.

India Jackson (35:33): Absolutely.

 Erica Courdae (35:36): So we are going to then send you over to pauseontheplay.com to be able to learn more and you can apply. If you have questions about it, you know, you can always hop on the email list and when we send an email out, you can just you know, kind of hit reply on that. But if you have questions about the community, come on over and talk with us. But it's definitely a place that I think you should check out.

And so as always, we love being here having these real conversations about the challenging things and making them a part of your everyday exchanges. So make sure that you cross lines, recreate boundaries and support and not separate today. We're looking forward to talking with you, and we'll see you next week. Bye.

India Jackson (36:22): Bye.