So for this episode, I’ll be doing something a little bit different.

My guest will be telling you a true story about something that happened to her last October during a workshop of mine. The event lit up a very important discussion in her mind, which we will be addressing today.

What does it mean to be an imperfect ally?

How can we create meaningful dialogues with each other about the challenging things in life?

How do we step out of our discomfort and address something that doesn’t sit well with us?

What is the solution to miscommunications that can happen around us?

Today, I want to show you what it feels like to not only be in a conversation with me, but have it be a dialogue in which we can discuss things openly. I will show you how I can support you in the changes that you want to make. So, 

Are you ready to listen in? What’s Happening In This Episode

• [00:04:44] A dialogue is started around critical matters in allyships

• [00:10:17] A live coaching of an imperfect ally

• [00:33:37] What is it like to step out of your comfort zone

• [00:38:00] See what working with me is like

• [00:42:23] Discover the services I offer.     

  
  

WHAT’S ONE ACTION YOU CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE DISCUSSION?

Being able to have context can help to shape your approach and the conversation that you aim to have with someone. Try to engage and have dialogue!

QUOTES

“You are now able to kind of understand what I tell a lot of people in that whatever discomfort you're experiencing as an ally, consider, “what does that discomfort that you felt and opted out of look like for the person that doesn't have the option, or the privilege to opt out?” You know, times 10 or times 100 times 1000.” 

+ Erica

“You know, I've studied criminal justice. So it's something that I'm aware of psychologically, you know, people don't want to get involved, it's so much easier to just stand back and watch something happen or to think that it's not your business. And what history has taught us is, that's rarely the right thing to do. You know, it's the people who do get involved when they see something that doesn't sit right with them, those are the people we should look to.” x

+ Guest

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Erica Courdae, 0:11

Hello, hello and welcome back to pause on the play. As always, it is amazing to see you here where you are challenged to examine your beliefs, question your predisposed notions and consider realities you may have been unfamiliar with in order to understand that they too are real. I am your host and conversation MC for the day, Erica Courdae here, to get the dialogue going. So, today we're going to do something a little bit different. I have had India on many, many, many times as my co host. I've done kind of live feedback interviews that gave you some insight into what it was like to work with me. That was a few weeks back with Tara Newman. And we've also done some panels, we've given you some cuts of other things, to kind of give you some insight into what it's like to be in the room with some of the events that we have, like I've done a few different types of episodes and in this case, I kind of couldn't have asked for a better way to really let you into what it feels like to work with me what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a conversation with me, that's more than just a conversation. 

Erica Courdae

Back in October I was able to speak twice, at She Podcast, I was on a panel as well as actually having keynoted a speech for myself. And this young lady was in the room and she noticed something and it just kind of didn't sit well with her. She reached out to me. And we began some dialogue around what it was that was going on. What came up for her, she was looking for some support from me on kind of what to do next. And it didn't feel like enough to just give her a task or just say, Hey, here's an action. It really felt like one of those moments where there was more to it than that. And it could serve a much more viable and robust purpose. And she was onboard to partner with me in this and this is the conversation I'm going to bring to you today. So you're actually going to hear exactly what it sounds like for me to not only have this conversation with her, but to have heard, firsthand, from her exactly what was going on for her where she was in her process of imperfect allyship, the challenges that she was kind of running up against, and what I kind of talked through with her or what she could do. And to give her some space to feel her feels and to just kind of decide what do I do next. And it was a very powerful conversation. And, again I am just really happy to be able to bring this to you. It's funny because I do DEI work. And sometimes it can seem very heavy. And I like to remind people that like I'm a human. So there's a point in there that you're going to hear something you want to hear me laugh because it's funny, and I didn't cut it. Because I think that it's important for people to understand that I'm a human. I'm not here to shame you. And I'm not here to bring blame and all of the negativity and make it any harder than what it already is. And I think that for you to be able to see that like, I'm an actual person. I laugh, I have actual normal emotions and to humanize myself for you. I think that that's a very important part of allowing you to feel comfortable. To bring yourself your challenges and all of you to the table the way that this young lady did and to allow me to support you. So, again, this is a very open vulnerable conversation is candid, I did not cut it. It is as as it is. I did not mentioned her name. This is something that we agreed on because this was a space for her to be able to feel completely comfortable. Being fully candid with this, and I felt like that was a very important piece of this as well. So, again, listening, hear what you hear, that supports you, is what you needed today for your place in your journey of imperfect allyship. So you had actually messaged me not too long ago, and it came on the heels of a speech that I had given and you brought some really interesting context and an interesting experience to me. And I felt like bringing it to the pause on the play audience was extremely valuable. So do you mind just giving a little bit of backstory on kind of how this began and how we got here? 

SPEAKER 2

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So basically, I was attending a lecture you were giving, an event on being an imperfect ally. And it was an awesome talk. I learned a lot and I think a lot of the other people in the audience did as well. There was some good conversation going on. And then there was a Q&A section at the end of your talk, and so people could have the opportunity to ask you specific questions about allyship in their lives. And, wow, there was there was one woman who raised her hand and she started talking about, I believe it was something about how she had tried to be an ally in her life, that sort of thing. I don't remember exactly what she said, the first part of what she said, but towards the end, she said something about how she was trying to enact allyship in her social media, and she said, “so one thing I did was I got on social media and I followed 50 more people who didn't look like me.” And I distinctly remember her saying that because it kind of perked my ears up a little bit, because I had seen a tweet from, I believe, a black woman several months, several months before and it was using the same exact phrasing it said, it was basically “Hey, white people. If you want a way to support people of color and educate yourselves without making us perform the emotional labor of teaching you, then a really easy thing you can do is get on social media and follow 50 more people who don't look like you.” And so that specific phrasing that was used in the tweet and then repeated by this woman in the lecture really got my attention. And so it seemed to me that she was taking this black woman's idea and advice and sort of presenting it as her own as self generated. And she got some good, positive feedback from people and people were giving her snaps and the audience and she seems like she seemed to be kind of getting a little something off of that. And it the whole thing just made me feel very uneasy and my initial reaction in my head was to call her out right then and there or to say something maybe passive aggressive, you know, raise my hand and be like, “Oh, I saw that same tweet or something like that.” But one of the things you had open the talk with was saying that this was a shame and judgment free situation. And I really appreciated that. And I know a lot of I know everyone else there did as well. And that allowed us to have the conversation that we were having. So I wanted to respect that and I ultimately checked my initial reaction, and I didn't raise my hand. I didn't call her up. I didn't say anything. And I just thought I would kind of let it go, and that would be the end of it. But as days went on, this kept nagging at me and I kept feeling like I should say something, especially since this had been an allyship workshop, and I'm trying to be a good ally, as a white woman. I'm trying to be a good ally to women of color, people of color. And so I just kept thinking about the situation and feeling like maybe this was worth addressing. Maybe this was a learning opportunity for me or for her or whatever. And, so that's when I reached out to you kind of in a panic a little bit, trying to figure out what I should do and how to address this. So my question was, basically Yes, “how do I deal with the situation?” But also this is something that I feel like I have seen happen in various forms, in various arenas of my life and in the world fairly often. I mean, we see, there's been a history of white people taking credit for the ideas of people of color a lot. I mean, most recently, with the metoo movement, Tarana Burke started the #metoo you and then Alyssa Milano gets credit for it. So that sort of thing just really has been on my radar and really is frustrating for me to see. And so then to have this situation happen right in front of me, seemed like the opportunity actually do something about it. But so my question for you is kind of how to address this specific situation, but also how to address or deal with this type of thing when it inevitably comes up again.

Erica Courdae, 10:17 

So the first thing is, I appreciate the fact that it even showed up on your radar to consider it. I think that it's important to acknowledge, you know, where things were coming from, and just kind of paying attention to I guess, when that whole intent thing pops up. And then, you know, obviously, how impact then happens, because sometimes there's a disconnect between it. And sometimes it's intentional, and sometimes it's not. But in order to figure out whether or not it's intentional, you have to first just even notice that it's there. So, the fact that it showed up for you, means that there's a level of awareness there. And before you can have any type of an allyship, imperfect or not, you have to have that awareness. So there's that. I think there's a few different things with it. I think that it is important to acknowledge if things are, if it feels as though it is something that is being kind of taken credit for that isn't yours, I think that it is important to acknowledge those things. And to acknowledge it being the person that looks different from the person receiving the offense, I think is important because it can land very differently. So when you see it and you call it out, it then is less of an opportunity for someone to say oh, well, I mean, I'm just doing x, y, z, and now somehow or another, they're centering themselves or they're just making excuses and so on. If a white woman is called up by another white woman, or just kind of, you know, brought into conversation to say, “Hey, I noticed this, and let's kind of talk about it.”  I think that there's an opportunity to be able to bring some attention to it in a way that could be different if a woman of color did it in in some of these cases. So I think that that's a big part of allyship. I think there's that. So I think the concept itself is there. I think and I think the Alyssa Milano example is a good example of it because the metoo movement was something that was existed years before it kind of popped up. So I think that that's, that's a really good example now, where I think that there may be a little difference. And while I don't know specifically what Alyssa Milano did in that specific instance, I know that she has been caught a few times kind of taking accolades for things I'll say, I don't know if she's aware of it, but it's happening. So I think sometimes people have the intention of, Oh, I'm bringing light to something or bringing attention to what I'm utilizing my platform. Some people are clearly aware that they are taking this like this is mine, like they are clearly aware of that. So, in this particular case, I don't know, if the woman that made that comment in the audience if she was so much saying, “This is mine,” or simply saying, “this is something that you can do.” Now, they'll there is the fact that she could have possibly said, you know, this was something that I came across, I did this and I can see how, you know, it really made an impact for me. So this is something that maybe you can try, it could have been framed differently. Yet at the same time, you know, she didn't verbatim come out and say, “Hey, I know what everyone should go do.” So that's where sometimes it can be kind of a tricky thing because you don't want to find yourself in a place of forcing people to have to censor things because they're not saying it a certain way. So while I think that it may be could have been framed differently, I didn't necessarily hear her say this is mine, however, with that there was energy with what she said that could have been lost if you weren't in the room that did feel as though she wanted something that I tell people very often you won't get. And that's what I call “the cookies.” You're not getting the cookies. So I do think that it was one of those. I just to give a little bit of context, I do think that what can happen sometimes is you can have some individuals that are trying to move through allyship and they don't know, if they're on the right path. So if they find themselves in a room with somebody to be able to kind of cross check it with, sometimes it can become, “I'm doing this right, right? Is this it? Is this okay?” And I, I think that that could be one of those things where it's just like, I don't really have an opportunity to get a whole lot of feedback. And maybe now I do. And so, here I am now presenting what I did in hopes that this is getting kind of the seal of approval. But again, there's a really fine line where it can come off from a place of you're looking for accolades for simply doing the right thing.

SPEAKER 2, 15:52 

Yeah, I mean, that's everything you're saying is kind of what I've been struggling with too ever since and one of the reasons that I didn't immediately bring it up with you or, and one of the reasons that I kind of just thought I would put it to the side, was because I wasn't sure that my perception of that event was accurate or unbiased. I kept checking myself and being like, “Okay, well, maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt.” You know, maybe like you say, Maybe she just didn't frame it. And I was trying to come at it from a more from a less judgmental place. So I don't know what her intention was. And that was something that I really kept going back and forth on and, wondering if I should maybe just give her the benefit of the doubt. But like you say, I mean, you were there and that thing that you said at the very beginning, the this is not about getting cookies, that really stuck with me too. And that's the thing that I also kept coming back to. And it is this fine line. So I don't want to be super judgmental, then I don't want to assume the worst right off the bat. Situationally, I think there were some complexities there are worth, you know, are worth examining a little more.

Erica Courdae, 17:22 

And I think that that's a big part of it. I think that there's pieces of nuance that can easily kind of get lost or glossed over, if they're not addressed or they're not kind of peeled back a little bit to kind of see a little bit more about what's going on there and what maybe is contributing to it. And, you know, for the sake of the audience, I do appreciate the fact that it didn't get addressed there because I don't want someone to feel as though they can't speak because the honest truth of it is, is that I don't think that what you would have mentioned to her would have been wrong. But I also know that it's already a sensitive subject. And so it could very easily then put people into a place of shame or fear of like, “wow, I don't want to say something. And maybe I just got so used to doing this. And maybe I did get it from someone else. And I don't want to feel like oh my gosh, did I do this?” So it's more because we're now in a group environment. And people can become hypersensitive to whether or not they're doing it right or wrong. So I think that that is true. Now, the other side of that as well. And this is where there's a lot of layers to it. I think that your instinct told you something, you know, your spidey sense kind of went off like okay something's not right. I might not know exactly what it is, but I know that something is standing out to me here. And that stuck with you. And so I think that that what happens is, is when that comes up, I think it takes a little bit of practice of getting used to that. But I think that that is prompting you to an opportunity to dig a little deeper and to have conversation because it would it would have been fine if you had, you know, maybe approached her afterwards or any other times that you'd seen her again, and just kind of, you know, said, “Hey, you know, we were at the talk together, and I just kind of wanted to inquire a little bit more about something you said, I was kind of wondering, you know, how did this come up for you What were your feelings around it and I didn't want to do it there. So you know, if you have a quick second…” And maybe just kind of seeing how that conversation goes, because at that point, you're able to get some context are able to kind of maybe get a better read or what the intentions were or maybe where she was coming from, but it also gives you an opportunity to have conversation around something that a lot of people are afraid to have conversation about something that they shy away from, and they shy away from being the person that is initiating conversation on something that maybe does need some adjustment, because the reality is that she might not have even again, recognize it. And then as you're talking, you know, you could have been like, “yeah, I think I remember seeing something really similar.” And it's like, Yeah, I saw that. And that was what made me feel that way. And so, at that point, if she's maybe approached it that way, it's like, okay, you're obviously not trying to say it was yours. This is kind of where this comes from. Or it could be, you know, really, I have never seen that. Where did you see that? or? Yeah, I started you know, you can kind of tell what the response is on kind of maybe what's going to happen next. Because again, that goes back to part of that  allyship, being having conversations with people that don't look like you about these kinds of things. And whether it's about challenging things, whether it's about bringing attention to things, whether it's about just simply engaging in something that maybe isn't being engaged in often enough. And then from there, you can kind of see what happens. But, you know, that gives you that chance to kind of take the temperature as to where she came from with it. Because I think as you're stepping into allyship, part of what you're stepping into, is that responsibility to say, when this comes up, I am then going to be the one to have this conversation. I am going to be the one that kind of initiate this because I want to be a part of the conversation. I want to be a moderator, and I don't want to then prompt anyone to have to do the emotional labor of it. So in that emotional labor, if that's a term that some of the listeners maybe aren't used to, that's what can come up with that sometimes online. And you'll have people that will say, “Well, what does this mean? or What does this mean?” And these are some things that can easily be googled, or you can easily kind of find the information on your own. And just kind of wanting someone to do that emotional labor is putting someone in this position of I could do this for myself, but I would rather you do it for me and I'm going to put the necessity for it on you versus letting it be my own responsibility. So, you know, being able to kind of be that moderator is a part of taking that ownership and saying when these things come up, the whole see something, say something I am now stepping into a place of “I don't feel right about this. I feel like there's some things that aren't quite accurate or okay here. I'm going to have the conversation, see what else I get. And from there, I can go with it.” And at that point, if you felt like it was it, you know, it clearly maybe felt like, okay, “you took this from somewhere..” You could say, “Yeah, I saw that. And I felt like that was something that came from a woman of color. And being that we're all trying to be allies here.You know, I think that taking the ownership of intellectual property that isn't yours is doing them a disservice. And maybe that's not being the type of Ally that your word say that you want to be.” 

SPEAKER 2, 23:39

Yeah, exactly. You know, this being an allyship workshop, the layers of the situation were not lost on me. Right. But yeah, and honestly, it's something that I'm, you know, kind of kicking myself for not doing, maybe approaching her after the fact and saying something. I think now, in hindsight, that probably would have been the best option. But again, I was kind of second guessing myself constantly, like,” Am I just being petty?” “Like, is this even worth calling out? Is this even worth addressing? Am I taking this too seriously?” And then on the flip side, I think “No, this is important this is an example of one of those daily things you can do in your life to try to be a good ally and to address these things.” And so I just really was kind of at war with myself and by the time I realized that it was probably worth addressing, I was not going to see this person anymore, you know, the event was over and I can now probably find her on online on social media and I could maybe start a conversation that way. Do you think that would be worth it at this point? Or do you think the time has sort of passed? Obviously, it would have been ideal to have that conversation in person. But what do you think I should do at this point, if anything?

Erica Courdae, 25:18

Only you can answer whether or not it's worth saying something. Now, I think that if it is something that is sticking with you, then you have to decide if it's a conversation that needs to be had, I think, in what I kind of heard from you in the message when you kind of began to talk to me about the challenge and things like that, and I heard a few different things kind of warring within you and that you wanted to acknowledge what was going on because it felt like there was something that wasn't okay about it. You wanted to be a you know, an imperfect ally and speak up, even if you didn't quite know how to do it or, you know, kind of what was going to come from it. But then you also were being considered at the space and saying, Well, you know, I want it to be shame and kind of guilt free. But then there was that part of you that's like, well, I also don't want to center myself, is that what I'm doing if I'm calling this out? And so, yeah, I think there's a number of things there that could be “addressed or labelled” but only you know, what the true actions are. Because at the end of the day, again, if it's something that's sticking with you, then that's where you know, you're trying to trust your intuition and go with that. I think what may help is, being that this is someone that you could contact online, maybe see if you feel like their content normally does this if you feel like their content feels like it's doing a lot of centering or it's doing a lot of like, “this is mine” and taking credit or responsibility for things that aren't theirs, then I think that that may answer part of your question if you feel like it's just a matter of maybe she didn't quite frame it the way that she really wanted to, because it was just again, a moment that maybe had some adrenaline and it was just kind of like, yeah, that may not have been the best way to put it, but hopefully people got where it was coming from, you might get a little bit more of a peek into what the intentions are, that she tends to put out. But the beauty of it is, is that it can be really easy to feel like “I had an opportunity, and I didn't do anything.” And I don't think that that's true. I think that it came up for you. You felt into it and notice that there was something there. You then reached out to me and it's started a dialogue, that I then invited you here to have this conversation, because I don't think that this is an isolated thing. I think that it is very important to address it. And so even if you don't mention it, we know whether you do or you don't, the fact of the matter is, is that you had something that then became a mass teachable moment. You stepped into a place of, “I think I need help.” And you asked for it. And I, you know, “I kind of need some, you know, I'm trying to look at this objectively, and I'm not sure if I'm doing that, and you asked for that support.” And you're now giving other people an opportunity to consider if this has happened to them, if maybe they've been on the other side of it, and some things to consider for how they can move forward with it. And that's a that's a huge thing.

SPEAKER 2, 29:02

I'm really glad that you invited me to be on the podcast to have kind of a broader conversation rather than just looking at this one discrete example kind of in private, I think that was a really good idea because I know I am not the only white person, white woman to see this happen on a day to day basis and just be wondering, what am I supposed to do about this? So I'm really hoping that people will identify with one or the other side or both, maybe. I'm sure I've been guilty of, of doing the same thing at some point. I would hope I don't do it very often. It's something that I'm definitely increasing my awareness of, you know, give credit where it's due, especially if it's a person of color, and so I just hope people will identify with one or both of the stances in this and just kind of be more aware of this sort of thing. So yeah, I really appreciate you inviting me to talk on the podcast, I hope. I hope some people I hope this will help some people.

Erica Courdae, 30:54

Absolutely. And I, you know, really appreciate that you were willing to step into that place of being vulnerable and open about it, and giving people you know, a glimpse into what it can look like and how it's not always easy but imperfect action and imperfect allyship is a constant learning journey. And there is no like, “Oh, I know all the things and I'm good.” And there's always something that you can pick up, there's always another opportunity to kind of just, you know, get curious around to dig a little deeper. And to just kind of see where, you know, how are you feeling about it? You know, where's this coming from? Why are you feeling this way? You know, what can I do with this? What could I maybe do differently. I think there's a lot of opportunities. And I think that you presented, you know, the audience with a peek into that you gave yourself an opportunity to talk through something. And again, I appreciate that you gave me the chance, because I didn't want to just give you an answer and not be able to kind of go through some of the what ifs with it, some of the layers of it, and not have that full context, because I didn't feel like that was going to be of service to you either. And so being able to step into that place of, I'm willing to be open. I want to kind of see what comes of it, I want to talk through it. I want that support. I mean, that means a lot. And again, being vulnerable and just open is a huge part of it because it's not always easy and you are going to have things like this pop up and you're going to feel like “I gotta step up and it's uncomfortable, but I also don't feel right if I don't.” So it can be very valuable to kind of see, what are some ways that it can be approached? Because sometimes I think that is, you know, how do I address this with this person? Sometimes it becomes how do you address this with a platform that you have, and I think that us bringing it here to the podcast is one of those things, but just also seeing, how can this be something that is addressed in a way where the solution is bigger than the challenge because sometimes it's like, “oh, you know, I saw this happen, and I don't know what to do with it.” But at the same time, I want to find some other ways versus just as one direction that I can kind of come at this from and that's where I think there is being able to have that conversation. I think there is kind of seeing what her greater intent can look like and how that conversation goes from there. I think it gives you that place to kind of see what this can look like going forward for your interactions with other people, things that you can take and have in mind for yourself. I think there's a number of things from it and bringing it to the podcast gave an alternative way of addressing something that could have just been left there and then there was no diving deeper on it. 

SPEAKER 2, 33:37

Yeah. Yeah. And ultimately, that's what I didn't want to happen. I kind of decided that I would be kicking myself if I just kind of let this go unchecked and unchallenged. So yeah, I'm ultimately really glad that I did bring it to you is definitely It feels worthwhile for sure. And I really hate confrontation. That's the other thing that I was kind of struggling with I'm really hate interpersonal conflict and that sort of thing. And that's something that I really need to work on, being more comfortable with that when it's something like this that is important to address. And I think a lot of a lot of people can probably identify with that as well. I think a lot of white women that I know don't feel comfortable addressing this type of thing. And I have been guilty of that most of my life and just it's the bystander effect as well. You know, I've studied criminal justice. So it's something that I'm aware of psychologically, you know, people don't want to get involved, it's so much easier to just stand back and watch something happen or to think that it's not your business. And what history has taught us is, that's rarely the right thing to do. You know, it's the people who do get involved when they see something that doesn't sit right with them, those are the people we should look to. I think so this being on the podcast was also me pushing myself to engage more in an arena that I've kind of been a little bit afraid to engage in. But I'm trying to do better on that. So, thank you again, for this opportunity. 

Erica Courdae, 35:43

You're welcome. I appreciate that. You did. And the beauty of what you did was I think that it gave some insight into how it's not an easy thing. Yet it didn't sit right with you to do the easy thing and it gives some insight into if this is what it feels like for you, then what does it then feel like for the person receiving it? What does it feel like for the person of color that maybe is involved in these kinds of things with a person of color, that feels as though they're not being heard even if they do speak up. So I think that most of us, as a general statement, tend to dislike confrontation. I think there are some people that confrontation maybe doesn't bother them as much, but as a general statement I think on average, a lot of people don't really want to be confrontational, but I think being able to address that you are now being able to kind of understand what I tell a lot of people in that whatever discomfort you're experiencing as an ally, consider, “what does that discomfort that you felt and opted out of look like for the person that doesn't have the option, or the privilege to opt out?” You know, times 10 or times 100 times 1000. Like it's, it can be way bigger. But being able to do that, it's just, it can sometimes bring a little bit of perspective to like, “okay, I can see how maybe this in the moment makes me feel a certain way. But how does this feel to the person that they don't get to walk away from this conversation? They live with the conversation?”

SPEAKER 2, 37:37

Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's kind of what I can't what it came down to at the end of the day. It’s definitely something that we should all kind of be more aware of. It's our discomfort is not the worst thing in the world. And it's a small, small pill to swallow, I think, in the grand scheme of things. So yeah.

Erica Courdae, 38:00 

So I'll kind of try to wrap it up. I mean, again, you share quite a bit, we discussed a few different ways that you can possibly move forward. I always like to give people something that they can then move forward with, with their imperfect action that goes with that imperfect allyship. So what do you think would be your actions based on the information that you now have to kind of make your decision?

SPEAKER 2, 38:30

I think you had a really good suggestion about maybe getting some more information first, if I'm still feeling a little tentative about whether I should reach out to this person, I can find her on social media, I could follow her and look at some of the things that she puts out and get a better sense of, is this a habit of hers of centering herself, just to get more information about that, and then I think I'll be in a better position to make a decision about whether to reach out and then what to say exactly. But I do want to pursue this for sure. Even if it's just kind of more information gathering and then going from there, I think that's probably the best option. At this point. I think that's a really good idea. So I will probably start there. And I would hope to probably message her or get in contact with her at some point, just to kind of clarify things.

Erica Courdae, 39:38

Right. I think that that'll probably work well for you because again, not that I'm advocating stalking people already, but I think sometimes having context is helpful because again, sometimes, you know, emotions can run high and you know, to misspeak, is human and we all have moments that will do it. And it's like, “that wasn't really what I meant.” So being able to have that context, I think, can help to shape your approach and the conversation that you aim to hopefully have, you know, the best possible outcome that isn't about, you know, no one's being centered, no one's being attacked, no one's being, you know, called out for being wrong. It's simply about trying to engage and have dialogue. And hopefully, have connection and possible, teach teachable moments and, yeah, kind of go from there. 

SPEAKER 2, 40:41

Exactly. Yeah, that's what I'm really hoping I think to get from this. I guess, less of a calling out which feels very one sided and possibly will lead the person to just react defensively and more of calling in, I guess, is the term that I'm hearing these days, it's more about starting a dialogue. Yeah, I don't want to attack this person, I don't want to put them on the defensive. But I do want to make them aware of what they might be doing habitually, if it is a problem. So I think that's a really good suggestion, I think, probably start with that. Yeah. 

Erica Courdae, 41:25

Perfect! I think that's a really good plan of action. If you find that you need more support, just know that my door is open. These are the types of things that I appreciate, when people do feel comfortable enough to come to me about, because it gives an opportunity for you to say that “I need support.” And I don't want to just kind of go off on my own and, you know, try to be the Lone Ranger and maybe it's not going to land the way that I want. So you know, we all have moments when context is helpful. So I just appreciate you allowing me to support you in that way. 

SPEAKER 2, 42:04

I appreciate you. I appreciate the workshop you gave, and I know the work that you do. I really, really do appreciate it. And you're, teaching us all how to be a better human beings, honestly, and I'm really grateful for this opportunity. Thank you, Erica. 

Erica Courdae, 42:20 

You're welcome. Thank you so much.

Erica Courdae, 42:23

This episode gave you a peek into what conversation is like with me, that can support you in the changes that you want to make. Whether you are adjusting your company culture, creating inclusive hiring frameworks, or looking to begin the process of integrating your business with inclusive and equitable actions. I can help. My “ask all the things” one to one coaching package brings us together to collaborate on creating a game plan to get you to your goals. And I say collaborate because these are your goals. I am here to support you, not make you do what it is that I want you to do.

Erica Courdae, 43:00

This is for you. I give you tangible actions and steps to take combined with energetic check ins to make sure you don't burn out along the way. You also get accountability support between your calls to keep you on track. I am here to partner with you as you make shit happen. Visit ericacourdae.com/services today to learn more. We show up here having real conversations to normalize the challenging things and make them a part of your normal exchanges, cross lines and recreate boundaries to support not separate. This is how we remove stigma and create real change and connection. If you enjoyed this podcast, show us some love by subscribing, sharing with a friend, or leaving us a review. Reviews are the fuel to keep the podcast engine going. Let's get more people dropping the veil and challenging their thoughts, feelings and actions. We love being here and creating the bridge for you to walk over to become the change that you want to see. So join us next time and until then, keep the dialogue going. Bye!