185. Autonomy, Personal Ownership, and Consent: A Conversation With Shannon Collins
Consent Is In Everything
While many of us are familiar with discussing consent in the context of sexuality, consent shows up in so many other areas of our lives.
Consent may seem like a simple yes or no, but there are layers to what makes up true consent, and access to it can be a privilege. What makes it possible for us to give true, informed consent? And when is choice an illusion?
Shannon Collins interviews Erica about how consent shows up in everything from health to hair to raising kids, even in our entertainment.
Listen on your favorite podcast player or keep reading to learn:
How Erica defines consent in this moment
How Erica is reprogramming consent in her life and in the lives of her kids through modeling imperfection and accountability
When consent is an illusion or a privilege
How consent shows up in DEI work, entertainment, and in the salon
Joy and Self-Discovery
Shannon Collins (they/them) has been aiming to photograph joy as resistance for 13 years as the owner of Shannon Collins Photography. As a nonbinary, queer, Autistic, and disabled person, Shannon has been educating others during their journey of self-discovery.
Shannon is the Founder of Youthphoria, a project dedicated to celebrating and photographing trans, nonbinary, and gender expansive youth in the Philadelphia area at no cost. They recently won Best Photographer in Philadelphia Magazine’s Best of Philly for this work.
Shannon also donates their time as the co-founder and co-host of Rainbow Connections–a monthly, virtual meetup for LGBTQIA+ kids and allies (K-5), in partnership with a local library.
Shannon lives in the Philadelphia suburbs with their partner and two children.
What Consent Means In This Moment
Erica Courdae (she/her) prefaces her thoughts on defining consent by acknowledging that these are her thoughts on the topic in this moment, and that it can shift in the future.
Right now, she says she’s thinking about consent in terms of choice and of asking permission and waiting until it’s granted and how that shows up in so many interactions.
Consent is about being aware of what other people are willing and able to participate in at a given time, based on how they feel, what their nervous system can handle, and what they’re able to absorb. Consent can also mean asking not only for permission, but about what another person’s accessibility needs may be in order to participate.
“Consent is this thing of like, so I have a choice. I have an option. I can co-create parts of this.”
Erica says that amount of choice can be overwhelming for people who haven’t had access to that level of autonomy and choice before in their lives.
Shannon Collins (they/them) agrees and adds, “If you’re surrounded by coercion all the time, you can’t even see it until you’re in an environment where you have access to autonomy. And that’s not always accessible to everyone.”
Reprogramming for Consent
When Shannon asks Erica how her concept of consent has evolved over time, Erica says it’s important to acknowledge that a framework of consent wasn’t part of the conversation in her childhood, and that, “nobody that was in these situations really understood what was happening.”
The harm done by violations of consent like forcing kids to hug relatives may not have been intentional, but that programming still shows up, and still needs to be recognized and deprogrammed, particularly for anyone who holds a position of power or influence, and it’s not always easy to navigate.
“There is such a fine line that we’re trying to tow when there are legitimately rules or parameters, or this is really what’s best for you, that may be coming up, as well as honoring people’s autonomy…There is a point to where I am trying to guide people around me, whether it’s my children or people that I’m in professional relationships with, to be their best selves. But I can’t make you.”
She continues, “the toughest part if you’re trying to fix and be and deprogram and reprogram and seek joy, all at the same time.”
Imperfection, Accountability, and Boundaries
Erica says that one of the ways she is healing her inner child while raising her kids with an understanding of consent is in modeling imperfection and apologizing to them when she doesn’t show up in a way she feels good about.
“I grew up with adults that were like, ‘I ain’t apologizing to no kid. I’m the adult.’ There are times when these tiny humans are more insightful and got it together more than I do, so why the hell would I not apologize? What does age have to do with understanding, hey I didn’t do that right this time?”
She also tries to make sure that her children know that they can express any hurt feelings or mistakes to her, and that “it’s safe to fuck it up.”
She is also trying to model accountability and providing structures that help everyone in the household get through the day with less frustration, like making sure things are set up to get out the door smoothly in the morning, so that everyone can navigate their feelings with less spilling over onto each other.
“That means you don’t bring any of your frustration to me, that means that nobody has to be redirected if things aren’t being done. It’s like, let’s not create frustration and upheaval if it doesn’t need to exist.”
Shannon agrees that creating those structures is powerful and preventative, and that it’s not a way of parenting they grew up with.
Erica says she didn’t either, but that working on this with her kids helps acknowledge that she is a whole person outside of being a parent, and that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own stuff.
“I don't expect you to take my stuff, but I do need you to not add anything to my plate. And that means that you also have to take responsibility for your part in this, as opposed to waiting passively for things to be done for you. This is a unit, which means you play a part in the outcomes here.”
Shannon says that in their household, they’re working to normalize things like going to therapy and tending to mental health, acknowledging each other’s personal space and boundaries, and acknowledging when someone’s nervous system needs calming, when they feel safe, when they’re open to receiving, etc.
Both Shannon and Erica say that they regularly ask their own kids if they want hugs, and that’s just normal in their houses.
But Shannon says they and their kids recently had a bit of culture shock on a trip to Disney World witnessing people with their kids on leashes and forcing them into situations without their consent.
“And our kids are like, wait, that’s a thing? Like, yes, this is a thing. We’re learning.”
Consent as a DEI Professional
Shannon shifts the conversation to ask Erica about how consent and “assumption of access” has shown up for her in relation to her DEI work, particularly after the summer of 2020.
Erica says that when people first started showing up in her inbox in droves, there was a certain level of fear about asking the questions along with the sense of being entitled to the answers through her time and expertise. And many of those efforts were largely performative and didn’t result in lasting impact.
Erica says now she’s sometimes witnessing requests that still feel like bandaids, or the assumption that just having a DEI practitioner who isn’t white, cisgender, and heterosexual is enough of an effort.
Those situations are especially difficult, because the person making the request or invitation is most likely not doing any of the work to ensure that a DEI practitioner is coming into a safe, considerate, supportive space.”
It is, “really, really hard to be this person that is asked to receive the transgression, heal the transgression, and smile while I’m doing it because, oh, if I’m giving you money, that makes it fine.”
That lack of consideration for the practitioner makes true consent difficult to give because the expectation is that the professional won’t have their own feelings or responses to process, and will take on everyone else’s baggage and do the emotional labor.
“I don’t know that professionals get the space to have consent when it comes to their emotions and how they feel and how they’re processing when they’re paid for something. It’s like money means all of it’s supposed to go away.”
Shannon says they witnessed a lot of white women engaging in manipulative behavior and misdirecting attention away from their own racism and that they can’t imagine what Erica’s experience of that period must have been like.
Erica says that she’s largely been fortunate to work with people who were serious about DEI, but that even though there was less of it, it is still harmful to be in contact with the lack of consideration and understanding.
“I’m still human and it still is hard. And I still have my over-thinking, perfectionist brain that I’m deprogramming of like, did I do enough? Did I try hard enough? Was there more that I could have done to have fixed this?...I can’t carry everybody’s shit.”
Privilege and Decision-Making
Because consent is tied to power dynamics, Shannon says that they also often think about consent within medical settings.
They share their experience of being pressured to induce labor with their first child due to high blood pressure. They knew that their blood pressure was artificially elevated due to anxiety in a medical setting, “white coat hypertension,” and had access to a doula who helped them navigate advocating for themselves and declining the induction. It wasn’t until after their second birth that the midwife acknowledged the white coat hypertension and that Shannon wouldn’t need an induction if they had a third child.
Shannon recognizes that being able to navigate that situation, with assistance from a doula paid for out of pocket, with time and capacity to create a birth plan, and to have medical providers who did, in the end, listen is a form of privilege.
They ask Erica who has access to consent, and is it a privilege?
Erica and Shannon first take a moment to acknowledge the value of non-linear thinking and being able to go on tangents, and accepting and celebrating neurodivergence.
Coming back to the question, Erica says the relationship of privilege and consent depends on the context, and there is frequently an illusion of consent, when our choices are bounded by location, socioeconomic status, education, etc.
“There’s a lot of things that come up with that, that you don’t even think about not having access to it, because it doesn’t show up on your radar.”
Thinking back on her own birth experiences, Erica says that she didn’t consider a home birth, based on assumptions about water births and fear of not making it to the hospital if something went wrong. But Black women have a high maternal mortality rate in hospitals because providers don’t listen to them and provide appropriate responses and care.
Erica says that when her son was born, she had initially had trouble nursing, and felt shamed by the staff for it. But no one told her until she was ready to take him home that she should have been pumping even when her son was in the nursery in order to get her supply to come in.
But, “there are people that nursing never becomes an option, because of a lack of information, or a lack of knowledgeable professionals to be able to tell you what you need to do.”
“If nobody tells you, you don’t know. And so part of it is like, where’s the omission coming up, that not only can I not consent, but I don’t have the information that I need to to make the best decisions. I can’t make good decisions if I’m not adequately prepared.”
She continues, “You can’t truly consent to something that you don’t understand…It’s not appropriate to want someone to advocate for themselves fully…when you haven’t given them all the information…It’s not okay. It’s not equitable.”
Consent is Everywhere
Shannon notes that issues of consent even come up in the entertainment we consume.
As an example, they mention the new Netflix series on Jeffrey Dahmer, where the production team led by Ryan Murphy, not only didn’t get consent from the victims’ families, but they weren’t even notified that a series was being made, “that their trauma was gonna be dramatized for profit.”
Some might argue that it’s a matter of public record, but Shannon says they even feel similarly when other photographers have clauses about owning the rights to photos and post photos on social media even if the client has asked for their privacy to be protected.
“It comes up constantly…It just feels like we’re looking at a magic eye and it’s so hard to adjust our eyes and see all these things happening that are not consent. Once you see it, fuck, it’s everywhere.”
Erica is reminded of a scene in the new adaptation of Interview with a Vampire, where two characters are discussing the possibility of only killing off “the worst” people, and the holes in that logic. It comes down to accepting that someone can be a genius in one area and that doesn’t make them a good person, which is how she feels as someone who has been a fan of Ryan Murphy’s other work like American Horror Story and Pose.
She says the Dahmer show is also possibly traumatizing for Black and brown gay men, a group Dahmer targeted, and “all it does is reinforce that people think of you as less than, and that you are disposable.”
But, she says, when we get hung up on binaries of good or bad, and put creators on a pedestal, we miss the complexities, layers, and nuance.
“I think this is where there is no perfection for anybody, and these people that we’re putting up on a pedestal, we can’t put them there…[And] there is a point that we have to take accountability for what we amplify.”
Black Hair and Consent
Shannon turns the subject to Erica’s experiences in the beauty industry and how consent shows up in the hair salon. They mention books like Don't Touch My Hair! and You Can't Touch My Hair that specifically call out consent and hair in the Black community.
Erica mentions a recent video that Kelis posted on social media showing two women who randomly came up to her and began pulling at her hair. “I was like, because we were property, you think I still am and you can just touch me?”
She says that “for the longest time, we did not have the autonomy to give or revoke consent when it came to our bodies, and our hair is part of our bodies.”
Now, Erica says, “there is this internal conflict of, am I doing what I was told to do with my hair? Or am I consenting to do what I choose to do with my hair?”
And that has implications personally and professionally. “You are consenting to being you, but also having no consent in how people process you. And I think that’s why for Black women, it’s been such an ongoing journey.”
While it can feel like a continual process of making progress, then losing some of it, Erica appreciates that the conversation exists, that there’s more acknowledgment of evidence of the health impacts of lifelong use of chemical relaxers, and that there are legal protections against discrimination for how Black women wear their hair. Though she’s quick to point out that it will still happen.
She says that being a stylist, “is something that I’m always going to carry daily with me…Having my hands, literally on the pulse of how someone processes themselves, feels about themselves, show up in life, how they are able to be this version of themselves, forward-facing, and how it helps them to connect with the internal version–this is such a prideful and strong thing.”
She continues, “There is this connection that you just can’t bottle. And being able to allow that to be embodied with autonomy, with personal ownership, with being armed with education, with choice, with flaunting all of you being accessible, and just knowing that you are safe and cared for in that moment; I love the beauty that can come from allowing people to access pride and consent when it comes to their crowning glory.”
Shannon agrees about the power of haircut after recently cutting their hair short. “I felt like I was unmasking. I felt like once I realized I was autistic, I was able to unmask and I realized my mask was feminine and I’m not feminine inside. It was just a weird exploration and hair had so much to do with it.”
Take Ownership and Hold Space
Erica’s final thought on taking action is that, “I would love for people to consider the large, small, and otherwise ignored aspects of consent and the way that it weaves itself into our lives on a daily basis. And where it is that you can not only take more ownership for yourself, but hold and facilitate more space for others to do that, that may not feel like they have access to it in the way that you do.”
Ready to Dive Deeper?
Members like Shannon Collins make The Pause on the Play® Community what it is.
Community members have on-demand access to the replay of Shannon and Stacie Lampkin’s workshop, “Sharing about kids online: Do you have their consent?”
In this workshop, Stacie and Shannon cover the basics of consent and boundaries when posting about kids online, and encourage participants to re-examine their approach to how they share about children in online spaces.
This is just one of the evergreen resources available to community members, along with our conversations, screenings, Q&As, co-working hours, and more.
Learn more at pauseontheplay.com/community