Summary

Nearly a year after this discussion from episode 62 of Pause On The Play, the question remains: why haven’t we seen or heard more stories about people of color by people of color?  A lot has happened since Erica and India first welcomed Cher Hale, a Taiwanese Black American and owner of Ginkgo Public Relations, to discuss the necessity of centering Black and Brown voices – in business and elsewhere – to allow for diverse perspectives, fair pay, and self-determination of our legacies. 

The conversation may be from the archives, but Erica and India return to provide updated context, inviting everyone to revisit this long-standing and ongoing issue.

In this discussion:

• the vulnerability of being a speaker or creative service provider and asking for fair compensation

• what makes a thought leader or influencer and who determines who gets that label

• the cautious optimism needed to create and sustain meaningful change

• microaggressions, tokenism, and incorrect assumptions about similarities in experiences

Keep the Dialogue Going

Part of “publicity” is allowing people who need to have their stories told to tell their stories! How do you hold space for other people to share their stories? What does publicity look like for you? We explore these multilayered questions in Pause On The Play The Community.

If you’re ready to have deeper conversations around such topics as publicity, we’d love to have you in our virtual space, where you can engage with others and create a more holistic strategy going forward. What a relief to discover that you don’t have to do this work on your own.

Article

From time to time, we like to bring from-the-archives dialogues back into the mix because we recognize that folks new to POTP (welcome, by the way, and thank you for being here) may have missed the original discussions. This conversation remains just as relevant today as it did back in June 2020. 

Why Haven’t We Been Hearing Stories From People Of Color? deserves another look because, as Erica says, “we so often have stories that are diluted through a lens of a person that can't speak to them. So, if somebody that was white tried to give my story, it's going to come through a white lens. It is impossible for them to come through my lens.”

Erica and India invited Cher Hale, director and founder of Ginkgo Public Relations, to explore the topic further. In addition to being Erica’s publicist, Cher uses her talents and energy to amplify the voices of people of color, maximizing opportunities so that underrepresented and marginalized folks can own their stories. 

There’s another critical component to Cher’s visit: publicity. Erica asks, “what does it look like to be a part of publicity that is allowing people who need to have their stories told to be the ones that tell it?”

Welcome (Back) Cher Hale
“So, my name is Cher, like the singer, and I am a Taiwanese Black American. And I mentioned my heritage first because it drives so much of what I do professionally now,” says Cher. When she began the agency, Cher attracted a predominantly upper-middle-class white female clientele from the life coaching sector, “They paid the bills” she admits, “But it didn't fulfill me in a way that I knew that my work should, and that I wanted it to.” It took a catalyst life event to change Cher’s trajectory. “My mother passed away very young, at the age of 49, where I had some time to sit back and reflect and wonder and ask myself, you know, what do I want my legacy to be?” she says. “It became very clear that I had to tell the stories of voices who weren't traditionally represented in the media.” 

Her mother’s experiences as a romance novelist further guided Cher’s professional redirect. Although she’d published a trio of books with typically beautiful people in exquisite settings having steamy sex, Cher’s mother never got the opportunity to tell stories from her unique perspective as a half-Black, half-Taiwanese author. “And, so, that became very important to me to tell those stories,” she says.

The lack of equal access afforded diverse perspectives across all forms of media remains a common theme of POTP discussions. “Not only are the voices not being heard, but the opportunities are fewer,” Erica says. “And then, the compensation that you're receiving is not the same either. And so there's this kind of undermining of your value that is showing up. And to me, it kind of seems like a strange parallel to this time right now when Black and Brown voices are in high demand coming with a side of urgency, ‘I need you now!’”

Cher agrees. “Long before Black, Indigenous, people of color voices were urgently needed to help frame what we're currently going through, and process what's happening with the civil unrest in our society, there's always been an issue with pay - especially for small business owners who are trying to get publicity.” This is how the “freebie” became standard practice, “the unfair expectation that we will always speak for free, that we will always give our advice for free and our time for free,” she says. “This is where that inequality of time comes into play and, so, I think that now more than ever, it's urgent that people who are being asked to speak and to help process these complex situations also asked to be compensated no matter what venue they're in.”

The Freebie Myth Debunked

Acknowledging that the compensation conversation isn’t always an easy ask, Cher offers a suggestion: offer the host or organizer an introductory session to your services for a fee. On the opposite end of the guest/organizer dynamic, Cher coaches white folks and those with platforms or power to amplify diverse voices to take up the offer and pay for that service. 

India agrees. “On the other side of that can come devaluation of intellectual property if we're not careful and people continue to provide so much education and content for free,” likening the situation to the photography industry - one she knows well - wherein the race to provide cheap-to-free services resulted in widespread depreciation.

Underexposed Black and Brown voices enter into many compensation negotiations with additional concerns. “If I already don't get enough visibility, I'm not able to be seen, which means my opportunities look different; my network looks different; my money looks different,” says Erica. “Then you get put in this awkward place of do I risk getting anything in asking for something? Or, do I just take the risk and ask anyway, and I just have to deal with the possible loss here?” 

“Yeah, it's tough,” says Cher. “Part of the solution, I wonder, is if we need to just change the landscape to be less of giving everything away for free to India's point - but also risking asking for more because if we don't... this cycle of inequality will continue if we don't ask for more and risk losing visibility opportunity.” The situation is not bleak, however. “I can guarantee you, in all of my experience doing cold outreach to speaking organizers and to podcast hosts and to editors and producers,” Cher says, “asking rarely, if ever, ruins the chance for you to be seen in that outlet. You might just hear a “no,” and that's the worst that could happen.”

Behind the Scenes: Compensation Conversations

The compensation conversation lands differently when handled by a PR rep. Could a greater transparency of negotiations foster more equitable outcomes for all?

Cher offers her PR pro point of view. “The difference between me having the conversation is that I know what my other clients have been paid; I know, historically, what other keynote speakers have been paid in the past for similar talks.” Her experience is inherently different than someone who's coming in green. “To me, that's an easily solved problem - if you know the right people or you're in the right communities.” 

Suppose you don’t know someone in Cher’s position. In that case, she suggests seeking out Facebook groups or other social media sources where speakers of color feel safe detailing their experiences and hold space to answer questions regarding pay. Another critical part of this process is letting the host or organizer know that you’re going to evaluate your options, Cher says, “leaving that room open for negotiation, not feeling like you have to get them an answer on the call or in an email right away.”

The idea of creating space in which to do this research before making a final decision is one that India likes. For her part, Erica acknowledges the anxiety that can go hand-in-hand with reserving time for that evaluation period.

Who’s ultimately pressing the countdown clock issue? “Is that urgency really coming from you?” India asks, or is it coming from someone else? “On my side right now, I feel like I'm seeing a lot of people approach Black-owned businesses, and I'm seeing one of two things: either they're approaching you and they're like, ‘I need it, and I need it, like, yesterday!’ and they're super impatient. And to me, that's also a red flag, especially when you're looking at a diversity equity and inclusion coach, that there may be a sign that this person is just wanting to work with you because it makes them look a certain way publicly and that's why they needed it, like, yesterday - because they need to clean up their public image,” which, by way of reminder, DEI is not here to do. “It’s here to facilitate change,” India says. At the other end of urgency is possible disengagement by the hosts or organizers under the guise of marginalized leaders being too busy to partake in the conversation. 

So, what’s driving the lack of transparency in the media around how much people get paid to speak? “It's just not enough people are willing to say what they're being paid or to share what they're being paid,”  Cher says. She points out that until there’s a forum and safe spaces where folks are free to be open and honest about the numbers, “we're not going to be able to make informed decisions.” 

Cher would love to make public as much data as possible across relevant industries, info like the going rate for a 90-minute speaking engagement, preparation fees, publicity, etc. to “give people a very realistic perspective on the full value of a presentation,” she says, “and what we should be charging because there's just, you know, there isn't enough information. And if there is information, it's not easily accessible, or it's not well-known, and that's a problem.”

The premise resonates with Erica. “I'm glad you said that because there is work on the front end and the back end of some of these things that I don't think is always being considered. 

Make no mistake: “It often takes a decade of work at the least,” Cher says. 

“I won't lie,” adds India, “in the early days, I used to spend hours working on one presentation and, you know, sometimes days.” The low-balling process also undermines your expertise and labor in an unfair exchange for “free access” to the organizer’s client list or followers. “From a visibility standpoint, if those people are not the kind of people that are interested in buying the type of service that my company provides, or enrolling into Erica and I's Pause On The Play The Community or they're not even interested in working with somebody that looks like me - can we address that elephant in the room? - then there's nothing I gain out of being able to sell to your people.”

Addressing the Elephant in the Room

To India’s point, Erica says, “The fact that I look the way I look, I wanna talk more about that because that does play a role.” It plays more of a role than she thinks people are comfortable acknowledging because “being someone, personally, that has, I don't know how many times over my life, been told once somebody meets me in person or sees my face. ‘Oh, I didn't realize you were Black; I thought you were white.’” The refrain happens all too often. “It's like, okay, so does that change my check? What are we doing?” 

“I'm pretty sure that all three of us have at some point been mistaken off of voice alone for somebody who is not of color,” India adds.

“Oh yeah,” Cher says. “I mean, even growing up, my friends used to call me a Twinkie ‘cause I was yellow on the outside and white on the inside.”

“I got Oreo,” says Erica. 

“People forget that I'm Asian, even when I'm right in front of them,” Cher adds.

Microaggressions aren’t limited to the schoolyard, as India explains. “My favorite, like, ‘you're so articulate!’ and it's like, ‘Oh, so Black people are supposed to speak one certain way?’” 

The phrase is consistently applied to former President Barack Obama. “The only president we've ever had that has ever been referred to that way,” Erica points out,. “Yes, he is articulate, and he is well-spoken. However, you have never said that about anybody else ever. Ever. Like, what is that?” While some folks are quick to take exception when challenged on their phrasing or choice of language, Erica’s having none of it. “It's not even truly a microaggression; it's an aggression, and you don't understand how that can make somebody feel and how that can resonate with somebody.” 

India urges the POTP audience to “take note that we're having a conversation about three women of color, you know, getting paid fair pay to speak. And we sound, I'm going to put in air quotes, “like a white person” because that is not a thing. But, could you only imagine what that looks like for somebody who may use more slang or has more of, like, an urban or edgy appeal to them? It's that much harder.”

Cher wonders if, in instances where either Erica or India detect an unconscious bias, would they view that as a fair opportunity to educate someone about their choices? “I have not had anybody that would actually show all of it,” Erica says, in terms of their biases. “It's like, if you're a racist, you keep it under your skirt, you don't bring it out. So, I feel like they just won't show it with me because they are a little bit more afraid to be called out.” Or they double down on tokenism, hiding their true intent under the cloak of being a good white person. The question, Erica says, becomes, “can you see it enough at that point to acknowledge it, or are you that good at being covert about your racism?” 

“That's so fascinating because there's so much talk right now about how white people have to educate themselves about anti-racism,” says Cher. “But, what continues to surface for me is how much I don't know about my own identity, and how to articulate that, and how to explain...what systemic racism even means. So, there's so much education that, like, white people think we have because of color that it's not realistic to assume that if you aren't already a DEI practitioner. Right? And so I think that's a misconception that I really want people to think about when they do ask a Brown or Black person to explain something to them, to do this extra work that we don't necessarily have the qualifications to do.”

“It's very degrading in my opinion to expect that just because someone is of color, that they have the knowledge, the education, and experience of somebody who is a certified DEI coach,” India says, reminding POTP audiences not to place expectations on someone simply because they are of color. “You expecting that is part of the problem.”

(Re)Defining Thought Leadership

So, you want to be known as a thought leader. Great! What does the title actually mean? “It's really nebulous, this idea of thought leadership. And, in most people's minds, if they want to be famous, they want to be like Oprah. They want to be like Ellen--”

“That doesn't mean you have any thoughts,” India interjects.

“Part of the term,” says Cher, “requires that you have original, unique thought, and that takes work. And that takes risk.” You have to put yourself out there, risk being canceled. Not everyone is willing to make that leap. Of those that do, not everyone has the skillset to do so well. And that's a real problem as well. 

“I think that people just want to be known,” Erica says. “And, somehow this desire to be seen almost trumps the necessity for a message [ ]. Being able to show up with that and, yes, be willing to polarize.” 

Hiring knowledgeable thought leaders is further derailed by fame and fortune. “Almost everything is driven and motivated by money,” Cher points out, lamenting capitalism’s preference for celebrity influencers over true thought leaders. “So, there is this frustrating paradox of who really creates a thought leader and who gets to call themselves one.” Is the status given or claimed? “I'm still wrestling with that question,” she concedes. 

Is there space for us to be both in one person, expertise and fame?

“More than ever, I have hope that we're reaching a place where there's room for all of that in one person,” Cher says, “but I do recognize the reality of the situation, which is that money runs the game; money fuels the engine.”

Could today’s social climate level the field? “When things aren't in upheaval, people aren't going to listen as closely or as carefully as they might right now. And so we have a chance to set expectations and to define our boundaries and to stick to those so that future generations can benefit from our willingness to risk a lot, honestly: our reputations, our income, our image...It's a risk we all have to take if we do want to see change,” Cher says, acknowledging that not everyone is in a position to do so. 

She encourages those with privilege - as a leader or an advocate - to take on the work. “We are the culture-makers, right? We have to uphold this hard line for ourselves or risk things never changing.”

The Risks and Rewards of Owning Your Narrative

What does it look like to operate alongside that risk, to take ownership of creating your own legacy? When much of what’s already been told has been curated by those in power, truth and accuracy aren’t often part of the narrative.

“You have to be willing to fail,” India says, echoing the wisdom of spoken-word poet Donny Jackson, “Willingness to fail spectacularly can carry us so far because even when you fail, there are lessons to learn; there's data to collect from that failure that you can apply to the next thing. But for people to continue to be in this place of fear of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, not getting that opportunity.” That feeling of scarcity prevents change. “If you're willing to throw out and ask for the amount of pay you deserve,” India says, you could very well have the kind of viral success that changes people’s lives. 

Erica agrees.“You can't be afraid of missing the shot that you have yet to take. It doesn't help us.” 

Cher credits India’s habit of practicing one ask a day for increasing her own risk tolerance. “Ask someone how much they charge for a 60-minute interview or presentation. Ask somebody to introduce you to someone else who's influential in their network. Ask someone else to have you on their podcast or to have a connection call. When you begin to make those asks, you can create the momentum and the confidence necessary to be able to put yourself out there and risk rejection,” she says, “but also, you know, like India said, succeed spectacularly as well.”

“I want to be fully transparent,” India says, “I have to practice putting myself out there every day, and I found that when I've done that, it's gotten easier with time.” She’s learned to balance that internal work with practical external considerations, surrounding herself with people like Cher and Erica, who have held her to the ask-a-day routine. “None of us are doing this alone in this conversation, no matter how successful you think we are.”

Stepping into a brighter spotlight is not only possible in this moment, it’s critical for our stories, our legacies. “I don't want it to be told through a whitewashed lens and it's not because I don't think that it can’t be done by somebody that is white. It's the sense of it shouldn't have to be that the only way that it can be told is by somebody white. I want to be able to control what it is that I say I experience, I stand for, and what I want to change. And I just implore Black and Brown and marginalized people to own and to tell their stories and their narratives.”

Quoted

CHER HALE

“The system has always been set up this way, and it has created this unfair expectation that we will always speak for free, that we will always give our advice for free, and our time for free.”

“This cycle of inequality will continue if we don't ask for more and risk losing visibility opportunities.”

“Now more than ever, it's urgent that people who are being asked to speak and to help process these complex situations also ask to be compensated, no matter what venue they're in.”

“Part of the term [thought leader] requires that you have original, unique thought. And that takes work. And that takes risk. You have to put yourself out there and risk yourself being canceled, essentially, if you ever want to achieve a status of a thought leader. And that's not easy.”

“We have a chance to set expectations and to define our boundaries and to stick to those, so that future generations can benefit from our willingness to risk a lot, honestly. “

ERICA COURDAE

“Not only are the voices not being heard, but the opportunities are fewer [for BIPOC folks]. They look different, and then, the compensation that you're receiving is not the same either. And so there's this kind of undermining of your value that is showing up.”

“You can’t be afraid of missing the shot you have yet to take.”

INDIA JACKSON

“I think that it's important to remind people that you cannot put that expectation – that just because someone is of color, that they can answer all of your slavery, history, and DEI questions. That's not how that works. And you expecting that is part of the problem.”

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